two one boom and we're live first of all

cheers gentlemen let's have a little

toast relax bob thank you very much for

doing this i really appreciate it i

understand

that you've told this story many many

times you've been grilled many many

times and it's very stressful for you so

i really really appreciate your time

for people who don't know the story

there is a documentary

jeremy corbell has a documentary out

right now it's called bob lazar area 51

and ufos and flying saucers and flying

saucers bombs are air 51 and flying okay

um

i first heard your story decades ago

i've i told you last night we went out

to dinner i've seen pretty much every

interview you've ever given i've

followed the story incredibly closely

but for people who don't know the story

let's give them the bullet points you

used to work

at area 51 in area 51 you got you you

went like

well you know we want to be accurate

okay area s4 s4 okay it's about 15 miles

south of area 51. okay

um

you

worked

in

what would you how would you describe it

i i guess

within the area 51 compound you can call

that a subset of area 51.

and you got that job before that you

were working

before that i had worked at los alamos

right national labs in new mexico and

you were involved in what kind of work

nuclear weapon development physics i

mean that's they do everything there so

how do they approach you

to say hey bob once you come on out to

the nevada desert

well the way this went down was

um

at that time it was 1982

i

had put

a jet engine in my my honda

and los alamos put it on the front page

of the paper

said you know uh

los alamos man physicist at the lab you

know

built this 200 mile an hour you know on

the jet car that i drove to work every

day

so uh so i was known in los alamos the

guy with the weird car and you know you

could hear it from you know a mile away

anyway

the day that came out on the front page

of the paper

was the day edward teller the father of

the hydrogen bomb was giving

a lecture

down there at the lab

and we didn't have much going on that

day in our group and i asked if i could

go down there

and

i went down there early and ed teller

was outside

leaning on a brick wall there and

reading the front page of the paper now

there's a guy out of history so i

introduced myself hey i'm the guy you're

reading about there and we talked for a

little while and it was cool

uh you know fast forward to years later

i had moved out to las vegas

and had you know left los alamos and

you know went on to other things and i

wanted to get back into the scientific

community yeah i left start other

businesses and

and that sort of thing so i sent resumes

out and one of them went out to ed

teller and referenced our meeting

you know back back in that the day

and uh anyway he remembered me

and

gave me a reference somebody to contact

at egng

and that's pretty much how it started

so

you get a phone call or a letter like

what do you get

well i got a

what did i get i got a letter initially

and um went down for an interview

probably a couple times and it was down

at eg g special projects which was um

at mccarran airport at that time out in

las vegas and did they give you any sort

of job description of what you were

applying for um they said it was for ed

i can't remember exactly what they did

this was a long time ago but i i think

it was um

advanced propulsion or something like

that something relatively generic and

they said it's in a remote area

um

you know it's gonna be some days on some

days off and um

you know it was kind of a

it was kind of uh not exactly a

full-time job but you might have to be

out there for two weeks at a time and

take two weeks off so it was kind of uh

the work schedule would be kind of

broken up

and did this seem attractive to you or

did it seem weird

no it really wasn't weird because people

that work at the test site anybody

that's familiar with the area up there

um you know working at the nuclear test

site uh or at the tonopod test range

north of there uh that's typically how

things go so you had known about it from

the scientific community because the

area 51 at that time was no they didn't

say anything about area 51. okay so they

just said it was in a you know in a

remote location and you just know it was

up at the test site right so but there

was no mention of area 51 at that time

so they've done

hundreds of nuclear tests in nevada and

nevada that whole area was there's been

there's giant chunks of nevada the

people yeah there's a big piece of

nevada and it's split up into different

areas there's a nuclear test site

there's area 51 there's the tonopod test

range north of that there's little

sub-areas there's areas where they test

chemical weapons and things like that so

it's all broken up as a you know

gigantic test area so take me back to

first day on the job

you accept a job

they take you out there

yeah

it's um

the first day really i didn't really get

to see a whole lot the first day was

essentially just paperwork that's when i

flew into area 51 proper

and i left mccarran airport

and flew what they call the janet

flights

just um

you know a passenger plane from las

vegas to area 51

and it was really just going through

a mountain of paperwork that day

from security clearances to um

god there was

it was like two or three hours of just

solid paperwork and that was that was

really an uneventful first day

when did things get weird

when did you realize that at what point

in time did you say hey

this is not

normal work like this doesn't even seem

like it's from this planet

that i can't tell you what day that

occurred on because so much time has

gone by

the days have kind of fused into one and

i can't separate the days was it a slow

burn or was there a moment of

recognition

well the

the first inkling i had was when i i

came in normal there's this facility

that is at s4

it's in the side of a mountain

and

normally we had pulled in with the bus

and gone around the front through a

normal double door

this time that i went in there were

hangar doors open

i went into the hangar door and in the

hangar door was the disc the flying

saucer that i worked on

i saw it sitting there and we walked by

it had a little american flag stuck on

the side and i thought oh my god this

finally explains all the flying saucer

stories this is just an advanced fighter

and it this is [ __ ] hilarious right

so i went by i slid my hand alongside it

i got reprimanded immediately for

touching the thing

and uh there was a guy an armed guard

that followed us in and just said keep

your eyes at forward and your hands at

your side and just walk in the door so

that was the first time i had seen

anything that was weird

it was some time later that i was

introduced to my um

my lab partner barry

and we had some of the subcomponents of

the craft

in the lab

and barry was very anxious to get a new

lab partner so he was very talkative and

couldn't wait to show me different

things and it was in the demonstration

of the reactor working where it caught

my attention to where

this is technology that doesn't even

exist

so i mean that was the first time i knew

that this is

really something different what was it

what was it what was a

what was it about this reactor that made

you think that it didn't exist

technologically well it was the i

actually have to back up because there

were some briefings that i read it

before that

that

you know certainly gave me the

impression that this was going to be a

weird job but this was the first

hands-on thing

this was a small reactor about the size

of a hemisphere about the size of a

basketball

on a metal plate and when it was running

it produced a gravitational field a

gravitational field of its own now this

is something that we can't do we can't

produce any gravity the only way we get

gravity is from large quantities of mass

but there's no machine we can have that

turns on that makes gravity like

you know you can turn on an

electromagnet and it makes a magnetic

field we can't make a gravitational

field anyway this device was producing

that and barry said

almost like he was bragging go ahead try

and try and touch the sphere and i i

couldn't it would it pushed my hands

away just like two like poles of a

magnet so that was uh so like when you

take two magnets and try to press them

together yeah you have this each other

yeah kind of cushion feeling but you

can't you can't get them together the

closer you put them the more they push

but then you felt that physically with

my hand yeah now there's nothing there's

nothing that does that

and that immediately caught my attention

going wow this is something else what

was your thought like when you felt that

and you knew that there was nothing that

you were aware of that could produce

that connected me to the briefings that

i read

on the the first day at s4 was that uh

you know everything that i had read was

apparently accurate

what were you reading

i read it was kind of an overview

this project

was to back engineer

the alien craft and

specifically it was to try and back

engineer and see if we can duplicate the

technology with available materials

now to do this they split the project

into

you know many different pieces for

several reasons they do this on all

classified projects so uh nobody has the

complete story but uh they

compartmentalize everything now we had

the power and propulsion system so what

the briefings they gave me were like a

one or two page overview of some of the

other projects that were going on you

know on the craft the only reason they

do that is just in case what you're

working on is connected intimately in

some way that we don't know of to one of

the other projects you have to know

there excuse me their existence so

um

you know i but

again everything from metallurgy to

um you know weapon potential the craft

and these were all you know essentially

very short briefings but mine was just

power and propulsion and

it made it very clear that what i read

was accurate

so when you're reading that before you

actually saw the reactor

what were your thoughts on what they

were describing

if you knew that something like that

didn't exist

and they're describing it in the

briefings

what did you think you were going to see

i really i i didn't know at the time i

mean i was reading i thought is this

just some kind of test

um

see if you're crazy well not to see if

i'm crazy to

you know a lot of times they'll take in

real high security

uh

jobs i mean they'll intentionally insert

nonsense into them um whether it's to

confuse the fact or if for someone was

to leak it out

they would carry that information along

and know where it came from so

i

read through the documents but you know

i didn't know if this was you know part

of some kind of test or um

you know or what or was it potentially

realistic i mean i really didn't

consider it being

all that possible as far as being uh

the actual thing that i was going to

work on at the time how did they turn it

on

the the reactor yeah the reactor can be

turned on or turned off in a lot of

different ways um the way barry showed

me at the hemisphere is removed

there's a small tower in the middle when

you put the hemisphere on the reactor

activates

the reactor shuts down it's it's load

sensing so if there's if there's no load

on the reactor at all it shuts down when

there's a load present on it it starts

up again load meaning

you can consider it an electrical load

so

although it doesn't necessarily operate

electrically there's no wiring that

connects any of the sub components

together whatsoever they just have to be

in the immediate vicinity it's uh

it is but the stuff is borderline magic

and that's essentially where we left it

you know when i left the project

so there was no progress made

there was some progress i mean we did

identify at least we think some

processes and

and had a rough idea we think of what

was going on but

i think this is a problem

that they've had for a long time

and um

you know i was replacing somebody

that barry worked with prior to me and i

think there was some horrific accident

that i didn't have a whole lot of

information on but you know barry

alluded to that

horrific accident like where someone

died or yeah where somebody died because

they were trying to tamper with things

or figure out how something worked yeah

the reactor in particular

but yeti let you touch it

yeah i think what they were trying to do

was cut into one now they had they had

more than one there and they that was

supposedly there was an unannounced

nuclear test

and

that's what it was at the time remember

they would still do an underground

nuclear test at the test site um but

from what i understand according to

barry there was an attempt made now this

must have been a pretty desperate intent

because it's not a very scientific

process to cut you know analyze

something that way but it looked like

they used a plasma cutter or something

like that to cut into an

operating reactor how many of these

things did they have they had nine nine

craft altogether i only got hands on

with one of them so i can't really

say what the how the others operated did

you see the other ones yeah at one time

and only one time the bay doors that

between the hangers were all open and i

could see all the way through

and

were they all exactly the same no they

were all different different shapes yeah

but they were all from somewhere else

yeah absolutely

now

did anyone make any attempt to explain

or to

to tell you where they came from no no

no one is the least bit interested in

letting everybody know

all the facts they want to give you the

minimum information that's necessary to

complete your task so

you're not getting the story of where

they came from you're not getting the

story of what how much progress other

people are making you just focus on

the small component but they gave you

some indication that they've been

working on these for a while yeah

when do you think they

acquired these

i really couldn't say

i think they've been around for a while

so

they bring you into this room you

see this reactor working you you realize

this is nothing that as far as like the

scientific community at current time

has the ability to create

we still don't

what is your life like from that moment

on is that where everything changes

because you do you i mean i would

imagine the moment you actually make

contact with something that's

extraterrestrial whether it's an object

or a being something where you can

actually absolutely be certain it's not

from here

your whole paradigm the whole world you

live in is now a different place well

this is the only time it became exciting

you know the rest of the time the it was

really

an ominous feeling being at work but it

at that time

it was exciting i mean this was now i

knew we were on the absolute be actually

beyond the cutting edge of science and i

was

i was so absolutely excited to be there

every single time i was um

you know it would this was a fantastic

opportunity and

however

in short order it began to concern me we

really have no idea what we're talking

about

and

the excitement kind of turned to dread

at some point

because the amount of power we're

dealing with is astronomical i mean to

affect gravity to produce the effects

like this equipment does takes huge

amounts of power and i've given the

example before of

you know taking a small portable nuclear

reactor and you know putting it back

into victorian times you know with the

scientists of the time and just dropping

it in a room and they come and look at

it and see that it's producing power

and wonder how it works so they start

taking it apart

and

as soon as they get some of the

shielding off the people are going to

drop dead because of the radiation

inside

now the people have no idea that

radiation even exists back then

but anybody that comes in to check on

him will also drop dead and

you know

there's no reason that that exact

scenario couldn't happen with what we're

dealing with we have no idea how the

physics operate within this thing the

power levels are are like i said

astronomic like it's incredibly

dangerous to tinker with something like

that

and you know in some respects we were

guinea pigs just try to find out how to

make this thing so they had a series

as far as you're

surmised that a series of different

scientists try to back engineer this

thing try to figure out what this thing

was and they would bring in new people

and like let's throw bob at it yeah yeah

and they i know i don't know how many

but i knew there was certainly one

before me and i knew he died

during the analysis of the or the

reactor itself and

you don't know how many have worked on

it and no one

gave this could have been there for

50 years it could have been there for

five years when they're giving you

instructions what are they saying like

when they're giving you direction

they're showing you all the stuff like

what what are they saying what

specifically what are they asking of you

well essentially what they ask is is

what i said all we are just to gather as

much information as possible find out

how it operates and see if we can

duplicate it so but they always realize

you where it was from they never let you

ask questions about where it's from well

if

the information i read in the briefings

was accurate now what i do have to say

is

the information that pertained directly

to the reactor

was accurate what i read

did

i mean did jive with reality um in terms

of how

in terms of how it was made how what we

saw how it operated the materials how it

you know turned on and what was

discovered uh

discovered about it

i'm sorry the migraine is really making

it hard for me to thank you sorry no

we talked that before the podcast you

tell her buddy bob is getting a migraine

i know you're very stressed out by this

which is one of the reasons why i

appreciate you doing this

um

where was i already we were talking oh

right yeah explained it

and uh

so there was some paperwork that

indicated that this was from the zeta

reticuli star system now

yeah now how they obtain that i haven't

i haven't the slightest idea but it

wasn't just from the zeta reticuli star

system it was

what they called zr3 so it was a third

planet in that star system so

there was no other information about it

other than that supposedly where the

craft came from now is that true i don't

know i have no way of verifying that but

that was printed in the same materials

that referenced the reactor now i looked

that stuff up when i went home

and

zeta reticular is a binary star

two stars that orbit orbit one another

and it's only visible in the southern

hemisphere and it's about thirty some

odd light years away so that's literally

all the information i have about that i

don't know how they found out it came

from there and you also probably have

some suspicions that they give you some

disinformation like you were talking

about before they would yeah yeah to

i mean if you ever decided to talk about

this they added a bunch of nonsense to

make whatever is factual look ridiculous

right or be able to trace it down like

hey this facts came out and you know

this lazar guy said it you know came

from zeta reticulate so they knew it was

when we read zeta reticulate we're like

what in the [ __ ] is this well reading

all of this stuff it was what in the

[ __ ] is this you're like why did i sign

up for this

no no

to me this was cool this is interesting

i said i was just excited to be out in a

secure area you know in the middle of

the desert i said this is awesome how

old are you

i get as in my 20s

yeah so you're probably

totally geeked out oh yeah

this was this was great i mean i i was

excited so i didn't care

reading through everything and so you

read through all the zeta reticuli thing

but then when you see the actual

starship with the little american flag

sticker on it well that was

was that later or before

that

that was before so before so you see the

thing before and you say oh this is

where what's that before

hard so many years yeah i can't

either way it doesn't matter the days

have fused together it's so hard to

separate what happened in each visit do

you remember the thought process when

you read that it's from zeta reticuli

yeah it it it it didn't hit me like a

ton of bricks or anything it's just like

yeah okay

you think it was [ __ ] i don't know

this is where i don't know now i don't i

mean because when i read it i hadn't

verified anything and this was just a

bunch of stuff i was reading and i

thought maybe after this they're just

going to give me a test and see what i

can remember in right crazy information

and it would but

like i said when i finally

went in with barry

um

and had hands-on

experience with what they were talking

about

it taught on a completely different

meaning so there's a plate there's this

thing that looks like a half a

basketball and when it's on you can't

come anywhere near it you can't touch it

right how is

what is

gravity about that like the the concept

of gravity to most people gravity is

bringing something towards it right well

i guess you would say it's anti-gravity

it's gravity shifted 180 degrees it's uh

you know

anti-gravity

and did they have any understanding

about what could possibly create this

effect

did they have any

areas where they'd like you to look into

no they

well

they knew there was a fuel source in it

and they were proficient

at making it work

and again my analogy to something like

this is you can drop a motorcycle off in

the wagon train days and just leave it

with the keys parked outside you know

somebody's place everybody will come

around it and they'll poke and prod and

eventually they'll turn the key get it

to start and become proficient at

writing it

yeah but they won't be able to

understand what the hell's going on they

won't be able to make the plastic fender

much less anything else and i think

that's exactly the state we were at we

played around with the parts long enough

before i got there where they could make

the reactor operate

take the fuel out and know that it makes

it work

how exactly what was going on

in the reactor

remained a mystery at the time

i think we made some progress on

what was going on inside but i don't

think anybody really knew anything they

could just watch what was going on and

make note of it how long were you there

i'd say about six months or so and what

what progress was made while you were

there

well we came up with a bunch of

reasonably good ideas about how the

reactor worked

and one of them was the base the square

base of it was essentially like a

cyclotron which is a small particle

accelerator a circular one particle

accelerators linear particle

accelerators are just a you know

long tube essentially and they

accelerate particles with high voltage

and you know radio frequencies till they

reach high speeds but a cyclotron does

that in a smaller circular area and

there is this

very heavy element fuel element 115

something that wasn't on our periodic

charts

at the time but it is now it is now yeah

when did it become on the periodic table

now the way the charts now you know i

don't remember do you remember when they

2004

durhamstat germany i think is where they

first fabricated four atoms they lasted

220 milliseconds with the atoms it's

nothing right and then it later was

discovered a couple more times they

could fabricate it then they gave it

they gave it a place then on the

periodic chart after that called it

muscovium so they told you about this

stuff in

1982 yeah well we can 82 what what year

was this it was 88 and 89 when i was

there 82 is one 82 was when you're in

los alamos i'm sorry yeah so 88.89 they

told you about this stuff so this was

not like no they didn't they didn't tell

me about it that's one of the things

that this group came up with

the um

um

i keep losing my train of thought with

this thing

so this one area this

this element 115 was the fuel yeah it

was the fuel um

the the world will forgive you for

having a migraine i can i just it's

really hard to think throughout this

case

i just want to say one yeah definitely

as i said one thing you know but for the

last 30 years

people have just been on the attack on

bob you know getting to know him the

personal effects on his life it's really

hard to understand unless you meet his

family and his wife

i mean this is the last thing he wanted

to [ __ ] do was have to talk yeah we

should explain that jeremy you and i had

this conversation i watched your

documentary

we had this conversation and i said i

have to talk to him yeah the document

there's there's been detractors there's

been a bunch of people that called

[ __ ] on many of the things that

you've said but over time

many of the things that you talked about

even in the 80s have proven to be true

things that people said were not true

were proven to be true element 115 was

one of them

right right right

element 115 the fuel they had was stable

in other words it didn't decay it wasn't

emitting radioactivity um when they

synthesized the two or three atoms of

the 115 uh it did decay

and it was not a stable element so

they're they're kind of two different

things but this is kind of typical

elements

always have or pretty much always have

uh stable isotopes and unstable isotopes

like i think cesium has like

30 unstable isotopes to it so all right

well hydrogen for example you're

familiar with hydrogen gas

it's stable it's not radioactive but

there's also two other types of hydrogen

deuterium and tritium and deuterium

isn't radioactive it's another

stable isotope hydrogen but tritium is

radioactive now they're all hydrogen but

they just have a different amounts of

neutrons so it's the same thing with

other elements n element 115. depending

on the amount of neutrons it has

designates the isotope but it's 115 they

will continue to take

or experiment and try and make 115 at

different isotopes and i'm sure

eventually they'll come up with a stable

version but it's the stable version that

has the properties that we're talking

about so they somehow or another had

acquired a stable version did they say

that the stable version had come with

this craft it absolutely came with the

graft yeah so at the time you having a

firm knowledge of the periodic chart and

knowing what was real and what wasn't

real what was your reaction to having

this stable element 115 that wasn't even

supposed to exist well everything was

impossible right i mean down down to the

metal i i did get a chance

uh to look inside the craft on only one

occasion and this was important because

where the reactor sat

might have been critical to how it

operated since everything operates

without any interconnection so the

placement of components might be

critical so they allowed me to go inside

and and look at it

um

dude again i forgot where the hell i am

so you're going into this craft and what

are you thinking when you're inside of

it like what are you seeing it's um

it's a very ominous feeling because it's

there are no at first of all everything

is one color it's like a dark pewter

color

and there are no right angles anywhere

it's as if somebody took uh i've said

this before somebody took a a model out

of

and fashioned it out of wax and then

heated it just for a short time so

everything melted everything looks like

it's fused together everything has a

radius of curvature where two uh items

meet it's uh it's a really weird looking

thing

but um

uh

there was almost nothing

other than a small foldable hatchway

that

that looked recognizable everything was

uh

was really unworldly

depicting it a way to describe it so you

you get inside this thing and it's

designed for something that's much

smaller than a human being yeah you

can't really stand up till you get to

the very center of it and how tall are

you

i'm 5 10. and what do you think this was

designed for i'd say something close to

half my height wow

so these little

three foot tallish creatures

yeah and the the seats were small too i

mean obviously it was made you know for

something something small but there's no

like there's there's nothing else in

there there's just seats the reactor and

some of the sub components there's no

there's no control panels there's no

bathroom there's no

no decorative uh components or artwork

or anything that you would recognize or

trim i mean it's just a very bare bones

thing you're not seeing any screens

well there are archways around it that

are part of the superstructure

and

that one of the archways can become

transparent

when i was in there there was another

group working on one of the archways and

you could call that a screen more or

less

so through that archway it would be it

would maintain the solidity the the

solid

whatever metal it was yeah but you could

yeah it just became transparent yeah i

saw that happen once or twice before i

left did you ask any questions about

what the phone no there's no there's no

asking questions no

but when you watch something become

transparent and you realize it's still

there but you could now see through it

yeah i mean now that's not that

impressive we do have some liquid

crystal materials that are like that

you know they are seen in smart glass

yeah they call it smart glass so this is

just uh and i don't know if the craft is

made of

you know an advanced metal or a ceramic

it was cold to the touch

so um you know i would lean in more

towards the metal you're not allowed to

ask questions

no the only there they work on the buddy

system so i can only exchange ideas and

talk to barry

now this really interferes with science

because science is based on free

discussion and ideally you get a bunch

of guys together exchange ideas work on

problems and that's how things move

forward

but they're so over the top concerned

about security they split everything off

and

everybody becomes stagnant it it

it just destroys any of the progress you

can make or at least makes it go so slow

um they i think they wind up shooting

themselves in the foot which is probably

why they

arrived at this bottleneck that they

needed to get this madman with a jet

powered honda to come in and see what he

could do i think that was an act of

desperation i think they wanted someone

that thinks out of the box and let's

just give this guy a try here because

they weren't and uh they might have done

this

four more times since uh you know up to

the point in time today assuming they're

still working on this thing

and when you see this craft and you're

inside was there any

indication that there was an area that

they would use to control it to pilot

was there a pilot seat

was there's there were three seats they

sat around uh the reactor was in the

dead center of it

and then equidistant around there were

three seats

so and that's all there was a a large

you would they're not consoles there are

large rectangular objects also spaced

equidistant around the center um there's

nothing on them there's no buttons

there's no lights and they control the

same color everything is the same color

different shape right

and um

directly underneath them there's three

levels in the craft uh the main level is

what we're talking about directly under

that

those are the gravity amplifiers the big

rectangular objects underneath them are

the gravity emitters that look like for

lack of a better word a trash can

hanging on a pipe three of those and

then the top layer

i this is just my personal belief i

think that has to do with a

a navigation or their version of a

computer uh with some planar panels

sensor panels around the craft that we

would call portholes but they're not

portholes they're just black areas and i

think that just determines its

you know position in space

but i was i i physically was in the

center section and i stuck my torso in

the bottom section and hung upside down

so i could see

how the gravity amplifiers were

positioned

what is the the roughly the size of this

thing it's a i think it

i don't remember from being there but um

after all this stuff was over i had uh

john andrews a guy from the testers

model corporation and you know we sat

down and tried to figure out from what i

saw

um

and known sizes of things and we came up

with 52 feet in diameter

so i think that's really small yeah so i

think that's a fair a reasonable guess

now you said there's nine of them and

you got a brief glimpse at the other

ones were they how are they different

oh

they looked completely different one

looked like i called it jello mold and

it it looked like a classic jello mold

with the rippled sides to it one was a

very flat disc

um

you know like a

oh i don't like a straw hat or something

like that that was sitting up on its

edge and the thin part of it had looked

like a projectile had been fired through

the edge of it so i don't know if they

were attempting to see if the metal

could be penetrated or if something or

if that's

where the thing came from maybe it was

shot down um but that was the only one

where i saw there was you know actual

physical damage to it

and that one was roughly the same size

they're all uh they were kind of too far

away to tell

and did

there was several teams that were

working on the propulsion system so

there was different teams that were

working on these different aircrafts i i

don't know i could only assume

now when you're

sitting in this thing

and you're looking at this

otherworldly craft

your your goal is to try to figure out

how this thing functions your goal is to

try to figure out how this reactor

i mean but you would imagine they would

give you more time than just one day to

check that out oh yeah it wasn't one day

right

yeah i mean this is barry was there

i think barry was sleeping there i'm

sure they had now

that that isn't weird i mean up at the

toenap test range where they work on

stealth fighters you know you go i think

three weeks on one week off and you stay

up there too so it's not weird to stay

up at the test site right so um yeah i

think he pretty much didn't he acted

like he's been up there for a long time

yeah um

but he's still there yeah who knows do

you do you have contact with this guy no

oh no i wish i did i kind of thought he

was going to come out after i did right

and i think i took so much flack and

it's so much [ __ ] for what went on

i think i actually i wound up helping

security there and everybody became

afraid of you know doing or saying

anything after that

so what kind of reports did you have to

give like so you're not making much

progress right you're just trying to

figure out what this thing is and it

seems impossible so well we didn't

personally make them i mean we were

always there was never a lot of

information

that we gained um

the guy

you would call him our supervisor his

name was dennis mariani

and kind of a military looking guy and

he would routinely pop in you know

during the day and you know hey what's

going on guys and he would essentially

relay any information anything new we

came up with i mean he was our

go-between you know where we presented

him the information then he took it to

wherever they were

you know

assembling all the data from everybody

no i assume you're working normal days

like an eight-hour day no

no

no it was really weird that i would be

only called in on certain times and

certain days and they would be weird

hours too

most of the time was later in the

evening i mean i can get a call at 11

o'clock at night and they'll say you

know it's now 11 o'clock

um

by 11 45 you need to be at mccarran

terminal and um

you know we'll let you know when

we have more information but what did

you do while you were there if you're

looking at this

object this

reactor and you can't figure out what it

is or how it works other than the fact

that it works on this element that we

don't even know about sure i mean the

thing was to

what you do in you know

with anything if you're trying to

analyze it all you can do is perform

tests

and all we did is try and come up with

every kind of test we possibly could i

mean we tested you know it

it violated

a lot of what we thought was impossible

to violate i mean one of the first laws

of thermodynamics i mean essentially any

machine any device that operates always

makes extra heat

nothing works at 100 efficient

even the headphones you're wearing

anything that takes power some of that

power is going to be con converted to

heat and it's just wasted

this didn't i mean we looked at back

then we had infrared cameras they're

different today but back then you had to

pour liquid nitrogen

into the camera to cool the sensor down

and um

and get these infrared images you've

seen

but it never got no matter what the load

was on the reactor it never got above

the ambient temperature which is

impossible i mean you're you know

pulling out huge amounts of power and

nothing ever gets warm

we tried measuring magnetic fields and

there was was nothing there so we

started playing around with the

emission from the emitters the gravity

wave itself

and saw what we could do with it and how

it was focused so we really spent all

our time

just trying to see

what the stuff can do and what we can

control so you were seeing what it could

do but you couldn't ever figure out how

it was doing it

no not really i mean we really we really

could only use a or come up with a best

guess and

now i can't say we really

that i could absolutely state for

certainly or certainty how anything

actually worked

now

how do did you know at all how they were

piloting it because some they were doing

some tests where they're having these

things

fly around in the sky

and this is

what gets us deeper into your story

right um

i was out there for uh

one test

um

right in fact i was in with barry in the

lab and dennis came in and said uh we're

about to run the test why don't you guys

come out or i think he said barry why

don't you come out here and bring bob

with you uh we went out there and

the craft was already outside the hangar

and was just preparing to lift off now

they were in communication with somebody

in the craft so there's a person in the

crowd yeah there was

certainly a person in there now it's not

a comfortable place to be in because

it's small so the guy has to be sitting

on the floor in the middle uh my best

guess and this is the same specific

craft that you heard that was because

you were that was the only craft that

you were the only one that i i touched

and worked on um

and it it quietly lifted off the ground

which was incredibly impressive to see

quietly or silently

what's

well quietly because it

didn't make sense

it produced um

a little corona discharge from the

bottom a corona discharge is kind of a

high voltage brush little bluish glow

discharge as it was lifting off the

ground you can hear a slight hiss sound

now as soon as it cleared the ground by

about five or ten feet

maybe even less than that the hissing

stopped and the blue gold disappeared so

it lifted off quietly and then it

hovered silently if you want to be

specific

wow so then what kind of maneuvers was

it doing

it took uh for that particular time it

took off moved a little around around to

the left and right and then sat back

down

the um

the craft itself

um

they communicated with it with a reg

because i saw the guy talking

in a regular vhf radio

to the person in the craft and i even

saw the frequency that was on the

the frequency counter of the uh

communication the transceiver there

um

but what's weird is

he shouldn't be able to communicate

with the craft with a radio the radio

the radio wave should bend around the

craft i mean it shouldn't be possible

every single thing about these the craft

and the way they operated

didn't make any sense to us i mean

that's something we talked about for a

while after why should the frequency

bend around the craft

well

you really have to look at the way the

gravity wave comes out of the craft

there's a the reactors in the center and

there's a waveguide that goes up to the

top there's actually a small appendage

that sticks out at the top of the craft

and it produces a heart-shaped

gravitational distortion around the

craft now if the craft is sitting in the

air and you walk underneath it and look

up

you actually cannot see the craft the

light bends around it your bending

gravity bends light it bends radio waves

it's um

it it shouldn't be possible to

communicate with a craft that has an

envelope around it that's distorting all

forms of energy

but

they were apparently in contact with it

somehow or another through some

unexplained way that they don't bother

explaining to you

so this thing gets up it just does some

very simple maneuvers left right left

right goes down

um and

did they discuss this with you i mean

they said they wanted you to see it no

they they just wanted no they they

didn't discuss anything with me it said

it sat down we looked around for a bit

and barry said let's go back we went

back in the lab all we got to do is see

it

um

fast forward

to some months later

i did have the test flight schedule of

the craft now they had times they had

designated high performance tests this

obviously wasn't one

that was a high performance test the

high performance test went goes above

the mountain range and they do much more

radical moves with the thing look this

is a prized item and they're not doing

anything like taking it out of the

atmosphere or flying around to other

countries or anything like that

they just play with this thing right

over the test site

but they were doing some radical moves

with it

and since i had the test flight schedule

statistically

the

amount of traffic and the surrounding

areas on the highway was lowest on

wednesdays and that's why

dennis told us that

all the test flights occurred only on

wednesdays because it'd be the least

chance that anyone would see what's

going on

and this was before the the government

had expanded the forbidden territory

around area 51 and papoose lake and all

that stuff right

yeah i think that occurred

after my story came out then people

started going up on the mountaintops and

trying to look down into there and they

kind of freaked out and then did the

land grab and pushed everybody back but

yeah that i think all that occurred long

after

i'm sorry that i came out

so

you're working there and while you're

working there you're under this crazy

schedule

forgive me for explaining your story but

you

uh would get these phone calls you would

have to go to the to the airport at 11

p.m

and your wife started thinking that you

were having an affair

yeah apparently so

um now i did give my permission to have

you know as as part of the

you know security clearance process um i

i gave written permission to have the

phones monitored and things of that sort

so they weren't doing any covert stuff

they um

you know with any queue clearance or

which is civilian top secret clearance

or military top secret clearance they go

talk to friends and

you know

place places you've been make sure

you're not connected to foreign

countries but you know monitoring your

phone is nothing unusual

however

they

insisted that

you know you don't even talk

to your loved one to your partner to

your wife whatever about what's going on

so she was essentially in the dark

and didn't know the phone was being

monitored

well

part of the security clearance

is that not only do you not have any

connections to foreign countries and

aren't a maniac but you have to have a

stable home life too

well she started having an affair with a

flight instructor

now they were monitoring this on the

phone and they knew it and i didn't

so they stopped me

coming in and their attitude at the time

was

we need to see how this is going to play

out and if lazar is going to get a

little weird or anything so

let's just

you know hold him off from coming in

and

you know see what happens and they

explain this to you what was happening

well after the fact yeah because time

kind of went on

and

there were guys that were following me

around and i started getting a little

concerned going well

ted are they

booting me out of the project and if so

they're not just going to let me hang

out at home and go get a new job knowing

what i know

so

as time went on i started getting a

little concerned and

i took my closest friends and just kind

of got together and i said hey

remember that job i told you about

this is what's going on

and uh like you don't need to take my

word for it

on wednesday night we need to all go out

here i want to show you what's going on

so i took everybody and we went out to

um remember since i had the test flight

schedule and went outside the base

out into the desert and so everybody

could see you know one of the high

performance tests

and you know it left quite an imprint on

everybody so they knew i wasn't and

there's videos of these tests right yeah

but remember this is in the

it's in in the dark in the 80s with a

big monster-sized camcorder and you got

you know a bright light jumping around

but uh yeah i mean we did video of it

but there's no

by today's standards it's but is your

video specifically available the video

that you took

yeah well george knapp has it it's is it

i have no idea jeremy yeah i show clips

of it in my film it's it's online and

someone did a deep analysis of it uh it

was interesting uh to take a look at how

well this microphone up to your face

about a fist from your face all right

um you know to see how his video looks

now but as far as video evidence i mean

we are talking 80s camp was the most

important thing is the human story here

everybody that he took up there on three

separate occasions they don't all like

each other they don't all talk they all

agree on one thing they saw something

that night at the exact point in time

and space that babazar said and remember

this is 17 15 17 miles south of air 51.

no one even knew really about air 51

we're talking papoose lake and they all

agree they saw something that night they

had never seen before and they've never

seen since right when he said it so

that's one of like the six things where

i'm like how did he know you can dismiss

him i i tried to dismiss it but some

things we can't get around and and

there's about five or six of them how

did he know about this if jamie wants to

find that video right now what would he

look under

bob lazar ufo

s for

area 51 just kind of like that uh so

it's like this s4 ufo video bob lazar

and a guy does an analysis but you're

not analyzing these 80s videos right he

from the very beginning bob never said i

have proof of my story and i'm going to

tell the world he said at the very

beginning i cannot prove my story that's

not why i'm telling this george knapp

convinced him to tell people

and he lived through it and i i didn't

believe it either until i i talked with

george

okay so you

you filmed these

this test flight one test flight and

then you get caught

actually it was i think the third time

because it

we went out there the first time

everybody saw it everybody was amazed

because it did some radical maneuvers

and um you know everybody had a lot of

maneuvers that i've seen i've seen the

video it doesn't i don't think there's

something we have now that does that no

in terms of like a human piloted craft

i mean i don't know obviously with the

government no it's it's impossible

nothing can move like that and remember

we didn't start filming from the very

beginning

you know

we were waiting for something you know

to happen the craft took off and then

came flying at us stopped you know

turned it a right angle flew back and

then you know after it did some you know

amazing stuff

to get the camera and then we started

filming so it doesn't have all of it on

there it just has some the way i

describe it to my friends and they said

what does it look like i said take a

laser pointer and then have a wall and

then move it around the wall like you

know how it moves around the wall it

doesn't seem like it has anything to do

with inertia or physics or it's not

impeded in any way by the atmosphere

yeah that's what it looks like you're

essentially separated from reality as

crazy as that sounds with it being in in

case it's an own gravitational envelope

inertia is not going to affect it and

you know this is

this is how some of those recent

sightings of commander david fravor i'm

sure you've heard of the

ufo i mean he describes exactly

that the thing operates exactly the way

i was describing that's why

he was interested to talk to me um but

we saw this

and

you know on the way home it's like hey

we got away with it we should try it

again the next test flight date so this

became a thing to do

and i think it was on

the third time

that we got caught i mean we started

becoming a little careless i think we

took a motor home out there

you know i mean it was like the

stupidest thing you could possibly start

tailgating yeah it was ridiculous and um

again you're in your 20s yeah and you

know what was funny was um

we went out there and

my friend gene huff and i were leaning

on the front of a vehicle

and

just for some reason we just started

talking [ __ ] like uh well i hope they

realize that uh

i don't remember what we were saying but

you know that

something about attacking the base or

something along those lines and stealing

the craft or

something like that

and um

then about 20 feet in front of us we see

a little green light

fall on the ground and roll to us

and unbeknownst to us now it's pitch

black you can't see your hand in front

of your face there were a bunch of

guards standing right out there and they

had a night vision scope where they were

like from here to the wall looking at us

listening to us and the guy dropped it

and the scope rolled over to us and you

could see the green screen

you know we turn the lights on and all

these guys are there so

it was uh whoa yeah yeah so we did

incredibly stupid stuff and got caught

as we should have because so when they

catch you and they bring you in then

what happens well i went in for

debriefing

the following day i went to indian

springs air force base which is kind of

a defunct

base that they used to use at the

nuclear test site

and this is when they brought out

um

the transcript of the phone call

with my wife

and you know they sat me down and we

said you know when we meant to keep the

secret we meant you can't tell your

friends right you know and it just being

sarcastic and trying to mm-hmm um and

then they got real serious

uh but this is where they

you know took the transcript out and

were reading me what uh

my wife

and

you know our friend were talking about

and uh

it was a hard time so what happens from

there

what do they do with you why don't they

arrest you

i don't i don't know i don't know why

i'm not sure they exactly they knew what

to do but they did let me go

that night and i went home

and that this is kind of when the most

stressful part started because you're

realizing you're being monitored

yeah now i know not only am i being

monitored but now i know i'm in trouble

and uh it wasn't a short time after that

that i contacted you know at that time

the

only investigative reporter i had heard

of in las vegas was george knapp

and um you know told him some of the

story because i had no idea what the

hell was going to happen at that point

so george knapp

tries to

dissect your story tries to find holes

in it

tells it puts it online and makes

everybody aware of it and that's how i

found out about it yeah to make a long

story short

what happens yeah to really make a long

story short what happens from there on i

mean do they contact you and say hey bob

it's probably a good idea if you shut up

how

did they try to label you as crazy was

there

there were boy there were a lot of

things that happened at you know between

that point um i'm leaving out a lot of

stuff to fill in the story

we'd have to go back to los alamos and

and

well i really don't want to talk about

that the um

top secret weapons

stuff that you were working on

no i'm talking about the 115.

um

well i don't know i have to think about

how i'd

what is the problem

i don't want to get myself into more

trouble by admitting something so

um i just have to dance around a couple

he was created just during the filming

of the movie people thought the movie's

great by the way thanks joe and uh it's

on netflix right now if anybody wants to

check it out and if you're one of those

people like me

who um you know i've always

loved the idea of ufos i became

extremely weary talking to people who

are ufo believers and ufo fanatics

because there's so many of them that are

full of [ __ ] and not just full of [ __ ]

they're they're childishly delirious

like the way they talk about things i

mean there's so many people that are

that i'm in contact they they reach me

in the night and they explain to me what

we're doing to the ocean is wrong and

like you're like okay this is one of the

reasons i didn't want to do the show

well it's i mean it's no joke we've had

people literally camp out on our front

lawn and uh

you know

in some ways i can relate to some of

these people you know maybe some of them

did really have some kind of experience

or saw something and all their friends

think they're crazy but hey now there's

this guy i heard on the radio

and uh at least he knows i'm not full of

[ __ ] so i gotta talk to him and so most

of the

correspondents i get are people trying

to get a hold of me going bob you you

gotta listen to me i'm i'm coming to

talk to you i'm you know i'm driving

from oklahoma or whatever and and and

but some of them are just [ __ ] bad

[ __ ] crazy yeah they're frightening

there's a lot of schizophrenics that are

involved in the conspiracy world so

there's a lot of people that have real

issues joe

it would be a disservice to your

audience to not say that

we have to look at what's going on now

and understand i've heard

on your show a bunch of stuff about

what's going on now and to not really

understand what's going on now you can't

see bob's story in the correct light

after 30 years and at some point we

should just touch upon that

um the the biggest being that things

like the tic tac ufo case that came out

i've heard people even on the show say

oh there's a glitch in the radar

that's a data poor perspective you just

don't know yet what's really going on

commander fravor i was able to get the

interview with him to talk with him way

before it became public i got that from

him he saw it other pilots saw it this

is a big thing that's going on right now

they had more sightings on the east

coast recently cubes with spherical

auras these are not aerodynamic and

these are the people we trust to defend

us on 911 commander favor protected los

angeles and 911. so we trust them but

they're not trained observers

radar

individuals see these things and the big

the big one just to throw down so we can

consider a story a little differently

there's more depth to it the big one is

the united states government has

admitted that they have been

continuously studying the ufo phenomenon

that program was called a tip advanced

error or sorry

was called awsap that that's the

mother program george knapp got that out

they they announced through the new york

times about a tip

but awesome these acronyms asap advanced

aerospace weapon systems applications

program who cares

that was the mother program so they've

admitted we didn't stop studying ufos in

1969 with project blue book we don't

think it's crazy we actually want to

reverse engineer the technology that's

why on your other show you said what's

this aav thing it's like they're making

up another ufo name well hold on there's

a reason because in the documents the

the dia documents that george knapp

released that everybody said was fake

till now they know is real

they call them aavs which is advanced

aerospace vehicles people are getting

the acronyms wrong so the reason for the

terminology change is so that we can

mimic what we're reading in the dia

documents people can look for that now

so they changed the names to get people

away from ufo or uap even like hillary

clinton said on air right so what are

you talking about hillary clinton

hillary clinton

informed the public on jimmy kimmel oh

jimmy we don't call them ufos anymore we

call them uaps unidentified aerial

phenomenon

right so she kind of was giving their

the clintons are very into the ufo topic

senator reid you know he he's done a lot

for the for the subject the study of it

right

so she informed the public so they could

look for the right term so these terms

are important because the dia in those

documents they've been calling them aavs

for quite some time now and they change

the name to anomalous no that that's

kind of a misnomer

so

they always mess around with things but

it's actually advanced right but when

they're describing it in the news they

were calling an anomalous space vehicle

totally and that's cool they were also

saying anomalous aerospace threats aat

right because they want the sense of a

threat right so my point is all of if

people don't know this now and they

think this stuff is is fantasy this this

part of it that we're studying it that

we take it seriously we're spending

money on it and that we're getting great

data from from visual pilots to to radar

that's why we know it's aerospace they

dropped from 80 000 feet but guess what

that's the top scope of the spy 1 radar

is 80 000 feet so the radar system they

were using it was coming from above that

so my point is this

if you don't understand that this is

happening you're just behind the curve

because you don't have the information

because of the stigma that you're

talking about i saw you get totally

upset with the ufo topic i met you first

when you're totally upset with the ufo

topic it's the people when

when when you're doing your

i'm sorry man when you're when you're

doing your show you know the joe organ

questions everything

i could see

how

how frustrating is trust me i have been

frustrated to hell luckily my mentors

george knapp and he's taught me the pit

bull pitfalls as i went through it my

whole point in this rant right here

is just that we have to now look at

bob's story but knowing the facts

not someone saying it's a bird it's a

plane it's a glitch

they're not and so if you don't know

that you just don't have the information

yet not just that knowing the facts as

we know him in 2019 not in 1988

absolutely and so what has he said

that has come true he's totally

unimpressed with it right what has he

said this come true so i was like bob

they've announced gravity as a wave you

were right man you're vindicated and he

looks at me and he's like well if you

think about it jeremy i had like a 50 50

chance he was not very impressed right

when did they announce gravity as a wave

so they detected in a sense they

detected gravity waves who were who was

they

you might know more there's two black

holes that were colliding and that's how

they were able to detect yeah somebody

bill i don't know which group it was or

what part of the government that's what

google's for yeah would it but they um

you know built a gigantic gravity wave

detector and pretty much

detected that there are such things as

first observation of gravitational waves

it says it was in 2016.

okay the first observation of

gravitational waves was made on 14th of

september 2015 right as announced by the

ligo and virgo collaborators on the 11th

of february 2016 previously

gravitational waves had only been

inferred indirectly via their effect on

the timing of pulsars in binary star

systems

the waveform connected by both

ligo ligo observatories match the

predictions of general relativity for

gravity for a gravitational wave

emanating from the inward sp i'm trying

to get this from the inward spiral and

merger of a pair of black holes around

36 and 29 solar masses and the

subsequent

ring down

of the single resulting black hole

well that i mean

yeah it's not he was in the 80s the

predominant theory was gravity is

produced by gravitons okay you know part

of theoretic theoretical particles but

um they're not they're waves they're not

particles and that's so the thought is

that the way we experience gravity it's

based on mass which is why the moon

which is

roughly one quarter the size of the

earth has one sixth of the earth's

gravity so there's some sort of a

computation you can make based on mass

right and and remember

we can observe

the effects of gravity but we have no

idea what it is all we can do is observe

it and we can't make it the only way you

can make gravity is just put more mass

together and it's just a product of

gravity but if you can make a if you

have a machine that makes gravity

you can pretty much do anything you can

affect time you can have force fields

all that stuff that's in science fiction

becomes reality if you have a machine

that can make gravity and what we worked

on in the desert was a machine that

makes gravity i love your analogy of

dropping off a small nuclear reactor to

the victorian era i love that that

analogy because back then that was

impossible that was magic

what you're talking about here the fact

that they just discovered this four

years ago that this is a wave when we're

as much as we know and as impressed as

we are as we should be with how much

more

technologically advanced we are than

every other creature on this planet

we're still in many ways in the

adolescence of technological innovation

absolutely

absolutely if even adolescence and when

you're talking about this binary star

system zeta reticuli and who knows how

much longer these things have been

around than us who knows what their

evolutionary cycle's been who knows what

i mean we might be talking about

something that's a million years more

advanced than us

yeah yeah it could easily be now i'm not

in

believe it or not i'm not into ufos i

don't follow stories or you know even

after your experiences no i'm fascinated

with the technology and i i it really it

irks me like every night i go to sleep

that you know i don't

that it was my own doing essentially

that

that prevented me from continuing on in

the in the project i mean it's the

that to be on that cutting edge of

technology is so alluring to me right

but

you know by the same token i don't

really care that there's aliens or where

they come from i mean the prize is the

technology and that's what i'm

fascinated by but so i don't listen to

ufo stories and that sort of thing but

george knapp is um

i mean he's the guy that has the context

and tries to thread everything together

and

what he recently told me is he found

i don't know is either documentation or

people that he spoke to it's at this the

existence of this project the project

that i was on it's something that they

seem to take out every eight or ten

years so that's a very specific memo and

this is actually i this is the first

time i'll be very clear with people

about it it's a big topic of

conversation right now it's called the

wilson memo

you can look it up

admiral wilson met with a scientist

who's actually was featured in one of my

films

everybody has been debating whether or

not this document

of a conversation

with a with a sitting admiral at the

time is a real

document it's an actual conversation

that happened and this document is real

everybody wants to know the world is

going crazy right now in the ufo world

i'll tell you straight up right now

i'm in the position to know and it is a

real document

that it is real so the conversation you

read in that

that conversation was had i can't attest

to everything

you're not being very clear sure please

no problem

so there was a document that is

circulating right now that is really big

it's going around everywhere people are

asking what is this talking about it's

called the wilson memo is what how you

can find it online

the or the wilson leak there it is

jimmy's got it the wilson memorandum use

of human volunteers no no no no no

yeah so uh

admiral wilson meets with this scientist

and they have this discussion oddly

enough at special projects at egng and

if i remember the document is from 2001

i'm telling everybody right now it's

real and we'll see my history is pretty

good with like saying if something's

real or not right so here we go the

document comes out they meet at eg

special projects in 1989 they stumble

into a problem

this happens they put the technology

away and then they bring it back out and

see if material science has caught up

and if they can make any progress so

this document kind of talks about this

process the big thing i get from it and

a lot of it's vindicating to bob and one

of the things that's vindicating besides

the eg g thing

is that private industry so this guy's

an admiral and he says i found out about

your sap your special access program i

need to know about it and he's going to

a private part of industry

and he is denied access

and he says i you know i should be

running this program and they were able

to deny him access

so i think the takeaway here is check it

out i'm telling you that that is an

actual correct that is a leak now

everything said in that document i'm i

don't know what are you talking about

what what is said in that document

specifically it's it's a between a

scientist and an admiral that are

sitting and they're having a meeting and

they're talking about

the the search for the the ufo subject

the search to get special access program

access to all of these different things

like reverse engineering programs

so in this document they talk about it

uh i believe that

this document that the person that went

was employed by robert bigelow you know

one of the guys that has a couple of

orbiting satellites and all that stuff

who's the guy owned skinwalker ranch no

he's not he was the guy the walker okay

yeah he used to own it there's a new

owner and i i interview him for my other

film

but there's a new owner and you'll be

hearing a lot more about that soon

but uh like it'll just there's there's

stuff that you'll be hearing about

skinwalker ranching because there's a

new owner anyway the whole point of this

you know insertion here is just that

that document kind of validates a lot of

this idea bob just said that they make a

little progress then they can't go

anywhere they tuck it away and then they

bring it back out you know 10 years

later and start working on it

what is the limiting factor i think bob

should speak on this but it's the

material science

yeah it's really where physics is so i i

can i can see them doing that i mean i

didn't have any

uh

information on that but i think what you

know george uncovered is probably

accurate that uh you know we try and do

what we can and once we reach a

roadblock on we really can't figure it

out it's just friggin wait put the thing

away wait for science to catch up and

you know a decade later let's take the

project out again and see all right now

where can we go but there's got to be

someone who remains informed right oh

yeah you've got your scientists like you

and barry you got your people that you

compartmentalize you got these people

working on yeah there has to be some

people right that know everything you've

got security and then someone's going to

be on the outside saying hey we need

people to guard this building don't let

anybody in for ten years i think i think

a lot of that is private industry and i

think that's how they keep it yeah i

think that's how they literally because

the government is just so leaky i think

that's kind of what they're doing that's

what the document kind of proves you

just articulated that that um it is in

control private industry what private

industry

some aerospace company something i don't

know yeah they wouldn't they would the

guy with the admiral wouldn't name it in

the car right in the conversation right

so

they

still have these things supposedly

i would guess i mean i don't have any

information have you ever asked anyone

that has any inkling of any idea of

where they got them or how they got them

no but um

something must have been said to me um

from barry

and but i i it was just too long ago and

i i can't quite remember what was said

but it

it just left a seat in my mind i think

at least one of them was part of an

archaeological dig

so

it's old

something one at least one of them is

old i don't know if it was the one i

worked on but i remember

something to do with an archaeological

dig whoa so that's uh

that means it's not just old it's

ancient that'd be a great stephen

spielberg movie yeah right

[Laughter]

as all of it would yeah that took me out

when he said that for the first time

yeah that's a freak out right there just

a couple of dudes with some brushes

looking for a tyrannosaurus rex bone and

metal and when did they find it you know

that they have nine of them well and how

could we have not heard about that what

about the guys with the brushes how

could you uncover something like that

and joe's newspaper at home does i mean

they said it on that first day oh you

mean the roswell yeah yeah yeah you told

me yeah yeah i have a cover what is this

here james it's the document but i had

to do some digging to find it yes it's

just kind of

yeah so this is where they meet at egng

and this is admiral wilson and there's a

lot more coming out now i want to be

clear george didn't put this out he

didn't

leak this out to anybody this is i can

tell you how i recorded this this

conversation so this was an employee

of at the time robert bigelow and this

is in 2002 right do you remember when he

had that government contract called

awesap the world all knows about now and

he had nids that studied the ranch so

that 22 million everybody is saying it

was for atip um advanced aerospace

threat identification program

the 22 million dollars was for ossap

that was pushed through through congress

three congressmen right an astronaut it

was pushed through

and that's what that 22 million dollars

by the way they spend more money on

viagra every year than they do studying

ufos if it was just this program which i

think is funny but they probably make a

lot more money from fragrance they

probably do ufos well you never know how

it seeds into population but anyway this

program

uh this is what was the mother program

so it it got the 22 million and really

it was to study skinwalker ranch oddly

enough that 22 million all was inspired

by the phenomenon they were seeing at

skinwalker ranch because the scientists

they're seeing vehicles come through

like a space in the sky yeah we went

there i went through it yeah we

interviewed

a bunch of people that seemed full of

[ __ ] but a couple that didn't but it's

very very interesting totally any

there's but if you look i spent a lot of

time in the area i'm not talking about

those stories i'm saying there were

scientists hired by the government right

through bigelow to study the ranch

because they thought it was important

and you know whatever whatever the point

is that 22 million was to study that

then we have atip which is like an

auxiliary kind of program of military

settings like commander framers and that

sort of thing this document is just one

of those things that has now come

forward that through the bigelow studies

it was government funded and then it was

personally funded and then government

funded

it's just one of those things that kind

of shakes you because you got this

military guy who can't get access

because of the private industry that's

holding these

non-terrestrial materials that they

can't study it so that's the the claim

right now give it some time let people

dig more into this

it's fascinating man

so

you are

essentially

you're you're

you're kicked out right you're you're

out of the this program you can't work

with these crafts anymore and

do they give you any threats do they

tell you what you have to do from here

on out

yeah well i mean the way it ended was

um i told george knapp

all this stuff and um you know he said

well let's just get it on tape should

something happen at least we have a

record of it and um i don't remember

what the emphasis was but um at some

point george wanted to air it and he

said

you know you make the call on it

and look if at any point you change your

mind

we won't air it and it came down to the

day where george wants to put her on the

five o'clock news he said hey this is

important stuff people have to know

about it and i thought it was too either

it's kind of a crime i know you've got

to keep the technology secret but you

can't not tell everybody that this stuff

is going on that we have you know actual

hardware from another civilization it's

a big [ __ ] deal you know probably the

biggest one there ever was

and um

george

said you know today's the day we got to

put it on the news or something to that

effect and when it came

right down to the time to air it i

changed my mind and i said

we're not doing it

and that's what turned into the famous

wrestling match between me and george

trying to get the tape but he won

because he was a bigger guy so he

actually physically wrestled well i

think it was more of a pulling match we

were i don't think we ever hit the

ground but

he got the tape he put it in the player

and boom five o'clock news was on and

then um

i got a call after that and they said it

was from dennis he said you have any

idea what we're gonna do to you now and

he hung up the phone that was the last

communication i had with him

and what has happened to you since then

after that

a lot of people i've known

either were

audited by the irs people had anybody i

know that had clearances that worked in

secure programs had the clearances

pulled one of them uh

friendly

one of mine that jeremy knows he's going

on camera with me soon he'll tell the

story now that he's out of work up there

he was working up at the tonopah test

range waiting for his clearance to come

through and you know they they pulled

that it would it became it's like if

they can't get the person that's

involved they just create a problem for

everybody that surrounds them and so i

mean the way it turns out it hurt a lot

of people's lives that i was connected

to

and that's an effective way of shutting

someone up did you feel that by coming

forward and going public they couldn't

just snuff you out that was i mean

that's what i was told and george and

everybody you know said that you got oh

it's you know it's public there's you

know no one will touch you and i i you

know i i fell for it um

and i i wish you didn't yeah sometimes

sometimes when it's just over stress and

people are camping on your lawn yeah but

it's this is gonna make things worse

doing this no this is gonna make things

better i was trying to tell them how is

this gonna make things better because

you're getting a real chance to explain

yourself in a way that's going to

make people who are not only work in the

government people that are

police officers and firefighters and

first responders and doctors and

scientists they're going to empathize

emphasize

empathize and and empathize with

what it must be like to be a person like

you in your 20s who gets thrust into

this world unknowingly

and confronted with

one of the most if not the most

important discovery in the history of

human beings the big question

are we alone it's the number one

question there's two questions right

what happens when we die and are we

alone those are the two big questions

right

and if we're not alone and someone knows

we're not alone and these some people

who know we're not alone are these

bungling

sort of even if they weren't it's a

crime that they're not telling the rest

of us but i mean i don't mean bungling

in terms they're incompetent i mean they

can't be competent it seems to me to

what you're describing that no one can

be competent with this technology

like the victoria victorian era scholars

analyzing some sort of a nuclear reactor

there's there's no way why do you think

beyond that why do you think they're not

telling us let's just make an assumption

that this is true right now

why do you think that they're not

telling us that our government doesn't

tell us what's your best well let me put

it into

what would you do if i'm the president

okay and i get this information what do

i do with this what do i do with this

there's something that we don't know

there's something we don't understand

there's something that came from another

world we got it tucked away in the

mountains and uh just wanted you guys to

know about it hey sleep tight hey

american motto's on tonight who do you

think's going to win yeah who's going to

win america

one is uncertainty and the other one is

what bob and i have talked about a lot

absolutely not knowing what to tell

people because you don't really

understand it yourself even though

you've got what do you say if you want

to run a government you want to get

people to pay their taxes but there's

something else yeah

what do you say so you have these

objects fine with impunity right and you

that you have something else well not

only that what can you say like how much

do you really know i think it's mainly

the technology yeah they just want to

keep the technology secret because if

there's

yeah whoever gets this dude yeah

you you control the where you become you

literally become invincible once you

master the technology you can't you

cannot penetrate a field like that so

imagine that's i know it's all science

fiction but science fiction turns into

science fact if you have

real force fields around aircraft and

battleships

you you win

you win you can force your will upon

anybody and uh

like i said there's so much more to the

story when i was first there

um

there were russian scientists at s4 that

was this was early on in the project so

this was before operation paper clip

became public as well right so i would

imagine that was i don't know what the

date yeah when was that when did was

that

98 i think 98 yeah yeah i don't know the

dates on it so it's roughly 10 years

later operation paperclip becomes

freedom of information actually it's

about russia not germany he's not a

russian scientist yeah but i mean

russian scientists a lot of them came

from germany a lot of those those rocket

scientists that work with nasa they all

came from nazi scientists got it so some

russians got some of them i just know

that and at some point there was intense

cooperation with even exchanging some

ideas on nuclear weapons and you know

emp tests and stuff things we would

never have discussed with them but at

the same time it was in the late 80s uh

they were involved and actually in the

area at s4 with us so you got to

communicate with these guys or you saw

them no i knew they were there barry

barry would talk about the commies that

were there the communities the commies

and um that was back when they were the

commies

and

at some point it wasn't our group but at

some point there was a big discovery

made

and this did not happen when i was there

it happened in between my trips to there

and after that apparently they decided

it was just too cool to share with

anybody and the russians were never

allowed back on the base after that but

you don't know what that discovery was

no no like i said it wasn't my group so

one of the other groups really found out

something

but the you know

in typical american fashion is all right

this is ours you guys get the hell out

of here was there any inkling that any

other government had something similar

no no nothing that i had heard see that

was the thing that always freaked me out

was why if if something was so superior

to human beings it's almost like

visiting an ant colony like why would

you go to the queen i don't give a [ __ ]

who the queen is i'm a human i'm so

superior to ants i don't care who you

have running your hive i'm just gonna

study it i think it's who got it who got

it look at the

you know rocket technology in germany

but they got nine of them

yeah that doesn't make sense to me

either so they were either in the same

area

or you know one had clues to where

others were

i mean i don't know you you have to fill

that in there but you're right i mean

nine of them that's a that's a a big dig

if it was archaeological well one of the

more recent

recent sightings and the these

discussions that have been coming out

recently from air force pilots and navy

pilots they've been talking about things

happening in the ocean

and that that something

go literally goes into the water or

something maybe below the surface

thinking about water 2004 tic tac nimitz

case so that's when george knapp and i

broke on the radio twice before the new

york times so i know this one really

well commander fravor and those pilots

there was

a disturbance on the surface of the

water

commander fravor visually saw what

looked like similar to across some

object so it's like as if you have some

like coral under the water and you've

got it's breaking over right the tic tac

is doing this crazy maneuver that defies

it's a gravity-propelled system they saw

it in the sky before they saw in the

water right yeah so there was um there

were radar that was picking this these

things coming down from 80 000 feet

dropping to 50 feet in less than a

second this is it jamie what is this

this is actually on the news today there

was a briefing so a lot of people get

this confused not this one then either

no so

that is called the gimbal so there's

three videos released by the pentagon

that are all active play and keep the

volume off

i i would i would really just pay

attention to the source video so you've

got the tic tac which is this object the

commander fravor saw another pilot

filmed it with a flir pod and it goes

but this one you see is really important

to bob's story the gimbal craft it's

been recently analyzed it's fleer not

only does it it's definitive that it's

not a conventional anything by the by

its movements but there's a pocket of

cold air

around a propulsion source

so this object by the way sat stationary

for days if not weeks it sat stationary

yeah they found it 11 hours later and

they were saying there's no way this

thing using that kind of energy to go

that fast could just hover the amount of

time and by the way you're seeing a very

small part of what happened that day

this object was not alone

and so hopefully that information comes

out and we can i mean i wish we had

video of it i'm sure we'd all want to

see it

but that's called the gimbal that was

east coast

right 2015.

west coast 2004 was the tic tac

the disturbance on the water commander

fraber believes there was something

under that water that was causing that

disturbance when the tic tac was coming

around to doing it

with inside the the people that are

studying this they're thinking maybe the

tic tac system was causing the

disturbance

but the uso unidentified submerged

object that he visually saw

uh the whole interesting thing about

that is i would love bob to describe it

is why it doesn't matter if these craft

are in

space

air or water why doesn't it matter i

love when he talks about this [ __ ]

well first of all commander fravor was

the f-18 pilot off the nimitz that was

sent out to find out what this stuff is

but and it wasn't just i got a chance to

talk to him recently and it wasn't just

a radar image i mean commander fravor

had eyes on it for over five minutes

watching this thing as four other pilots

did so this wasn't a radar blip or

anything i mean these guys were watching

this thing but

you know one of the things i think in

the gimbal video

the way the craft that we worked on

flies

is it doesn't fly like

a conventional aircraft does and it

doesn't fly like a flying saucer with in

a 1950s movie it flies belly first

i mean it may set down conventionally

but it always rotates it does a role

maneuver puts its belly towards the

target and then moves away so it's like

a car flying with the wheels forward

right

i mean it may lift land on the wheels

but at some point when it wants to leave

flips flips up points the wheels where

it wants to go and takes off and the

gimbal video you can see the craft do

the roll maneuver and uh

it's really interesting it behaves

exactly like the crafts that i worked on

so

much like we have different shaped

aircrafts and fighter jets and cars they

probably have different shapes of these

objects that operate under similar

principles

right but they all have the same power

source they all have the same power

source and we're also dealing with

if you think about

the laws of technological progression

you know you think of moore's law and

you think of how things accelerate

you've got to think that if this

civilization is who knows how many years

more advanced than we are

if not even years i mean i mean we're

thinking about in terms of conventional

terms right the way the way we look at

the world i mean they meet they might be

just

superior in terms of their intellect

they've got to be maybe maybe we don't

know right well the only reason i

i say that is because

look everyone doesn't necessarily start

at a steam engine right and go to an

internal combustion engine and then you

know electric power nuclear power and go

up the ladder that we right come on um

you know the binary if the stuff is true

about the origin and the binary star

system and they have heavier elements

that we don't have and this element

stable element 115 is a naturally

occurring material

maybe that's the first thing they

started experimenting with and the

version of their steam engine their

first product was something that

operated like this and actually when

they came to earth to look around or you

know whatever they were amazed at the

stuff we were doing these guys burned

stuff and squirted out the back to go

forward so right um right you know who

says they follow any kind of normal

progression like that my my thought was

if you went back to the 1400s and then

you went from 1400 to 1500 you're not

going to see that much of a difference

technologically right if you go from

2000 to 3000 i assume there's going to

be a radical change right well the yeah

the delta the rate of change is is

magnificently higher than it used to be

right so if you think about what they

had in 1988 and you think about what

they probably have in 2019

just

logically seems like they would advance

i would think so

the only

question is like

are they living

is that a living thing in terms of like

a biological thing

or are they some sort of an artificially

created creation like we are working on

right now i mean we're in the middle of

working on artificial reality artificial

beings sentient beings artificial

intelligence there's cons silicon based

life forms that they're essentially

trying to create boston dynamic or was

it boston dynamics of the company

robots yeah you can make machines out of

flesh right so a cyborg or cybernetic

organism is just that you know that's

what a lot of people think those like

gray things are you know that people

call the grays yeah it's like they were

like they're machines printed from flash

so what you're saying is like well they

could just be no synthetic

they don't even need to be you know

machines well they seem to have no sex

organs the way they're described by

people that have had interactions with

them assuming these people aren't liars

right or crazy or whatever right that

they have no sex organs and that they

don't seem to have any muscle that is

almost like a frame right and they have

enormous heads i mean if you look at

australopithecus or depictions of you

know ancient hominids and then you go to

human beings one of the things you see

is bigger heads and weaker bodies well

you see a clear progression of evolution

too where for something like that i

would lean towards a synthetic organism

because it looks like it was made for a

specific task there was no reproductive

organs so i mean that almost kind of

leaves out any kind of you know physical

evolution right well that's also our

bottleneck right our bottleneck is our

biological imperative the the need to

breed emotions fear anxiety all these

different things that exist in order to

force us into making sure we reproduce i

mean that's essentially there's human

reward systems that aren't necessary

once they can figure out a way to make

some sort of sentient artificial life

some sort of thing that doesn't have

these biological limitations that we

have by the way these craft all these

different kinds have been reported

because it was confusing i always

thought of flying saucers what i heard

bob lazar talk about flying saucer right

but if you look back in history people

have always reported the weirdest shapes

like none of them are alike you know

there are the saucers but you got cigar

shaped you got you know the top hat

shape you have orbs why maybe they're

serving different purposes they're doing

different things like we'd use different

tools and i want to be clear the reason

i know that memo is real is because i

spent a lot of time with dr edgar

mitchell six man to walk on the moon

last guy to film him before he died

right

that's how i know i don't want any

journalists thinking i got it from

anywhere else i know because of dr

mitchell and he said the same thing

maybe these things are

performing different tasks you know and

that's what i seem if you if you think

about what an alien is in terms of our

our

the sort of iconic image of an alien

like the steven spielberg closing cows

are the third time the third kind alien

they seem like

what we'd assume a human being would

eventually become right

and if these things are tiny human

beings are smaller than they've ever

been before they're weaker than they've

ever been before and there seems to be a

trend in that direction and this trend

seems to be amplified by our

technological progression

there our

lack of need for muscle strength and our

lack of need for violence and we're

moving in a society to try to get away

from all the things that we think are

abhorrent about human beings and the

terrible behaviors that we have if we

one day do give birth to some sort of an

artificial being like marshall mcluhan's

uh

quote we are the sex organs of the

machine world

you know that one day okay i'll buy this

yeah mcloone was brilliant and that that

quote has always been one of my

favorites because okay what are we doing

when we're constantly technologically

innovating we're constantly looking for

faster cars better computers bigger

screens faster more resolution more

pixels more this more that higher

bandwidth 5g 10g right what are we doing

we're moving into this in this if you

just follow it objectively stay stand

back don't attach yourself or your

civilization your culture to it and look

at what it is we're moving

a hundred percent towards technological

innovation if you looked at this species

from afar and if you weren't a part of

it you would say what does this species

do oh they make things they make things

better every year beehives are the same

[ __ ] thing that you see 10 years ago

you go by you see a beehive it's amazing

it's cool but they're the same [ __ ]

thing they figured out how to do it they

make a beehive right we don't do that we

make better things what would you

constantly and at some point i think

that technology is going to fuse with us

yes and we're going to become it's

already happening yeah elon musk talked

about it on my podcast that we are

cyborgs you just carry it in your pocket

it's a phone it answers any question you

want you can talk to it it'll give you

the answers the answers instantaneously

it navigates you it has all your phone

numbers and it has all your contacts you

can get a hold of people people

listening to you through it it's

connecting us in ways even involuntarily

haptics that kind of thing yeah it's

also getting on your wrist how many

people have eye watches apple watches

right and that's only because we can't

integrate them yet but you know that

point is 100

yeah i didn't joke about it last night

but i have a bit about it that i do

about the the integration between humans

and technology that's what would you do

if you were a hyper intelligence right

would you do the work yourself or would

you create some cool things called like

humans to do it for you would you create

things that are cybernetic organisms to

come in with machines and do it for you

if you're a hyper intelligence that has

kind of changed like you've described

you'd probably create workers right well

that's a vast conspiracy theory i'm not

talking about conspiracy but it is a

kind of a conspiracy i'm asking you well

i mean i don't think it's necessarily

that i mean you could look at it that

way but that is the way a conspiracy

theorist would look at it the way i

would look at it is like there's

obviously a progression going on a

biological progression there's some sort

of an integration with technology

there's some sort of imperative this

need for technological innovation it's

inescapable everyone has it we and i

think it's attached to materialism in

some sort of a strange way because so

many people work so hard to get new

things and like god that seems so

illogical and preposterous and it makes

people unhappy and depression's on the

rise but nobody seems to be able to stop

it like why is that well maybe it's

because we are the

caterpillars that give birth to the

butterfly maybe that's what we're doing

very well what our job is to do is to

make some sort of a cocoon and we don't

even know we're doing it while we're

doing it do you think a caterpillar is

well hey caterpillar what are you doing

man just i'm doing my thing it's my job

i have to make a cocoon then become like

a body this could be a natural part of

evolution it could be that we're just

supposed to do this exactly and make the

jump to

some sort of mechanized right

yeah non-biological an orangutan that is

uh fishing with a spear

no they they've figured out how to fish

with spears there's

uh there's um

primatologists

without somebody showing them how to

fish no they've imitated human beings

doing it and now they do it but they do

it independently they're not trained

orangutans they're wild around look at

that

there's a wild rice okay that's

impressive very impressive well there's

these primatologists i guess you would

call them primatologists that's a term

that's a great biologist biologists that

believe that

monkeys and chimps

and some of the great apes are moving

into the stone age that they've

currently entered the stone age like

they're not staying what they were a

hundred thousand years ago or five

hundred thousand years ago but they're

actively using tools and they're

experimenting with different different

ways to use those tools and then they're

making tools out of stone they're making

tools out of sticks and they're they're

using them

well this might just be what happens

this might just be what happens

i mean why else why would why the [ __ ]

we work so hard i mean i i was i was

driving to la this morning um i had a

doctor's appointment so i was on the 405

at uh eight in the morning like jesus

christ like this is so crazy when you're

in the 405 in l.a at eight o'clock in

the morning you see literally a million

cars

and this is everywhere you go as people

but and also i'm in a tesla so i have it

on autopilot so i'm there sitting i'm

listening to a podcast i barely have my

hand on the wheel i'm not touching [ __ ]

this car's driving me along i'm not even

doing anything i'm just i'm just hanging

out it's so much less stressful by the

way to do that that way right so it

encourages you to innovate it encourages

you to embrace this new technology i got

this giant screen it's showing me the

navigation in front of me i'll be there

five minutes early excellent and i'm

listening to a podcast wirelessly it's

bluetooth screen streaming from my phone

and i pulled that podcast which came out

today out of the [ __ ] sky and i'm

listening to it and i'm all comfortable

in my nice little car just driving on my

way to the doctor's office this is

irresistible stuff yeah yeah different

than your walkman yeah you know that can

be irresistible

it is a resistance it's frighteningly

irresistible but is it frightening i

mean if you were a monkey right if you

were um an australiopithecus would you

go man i don't want to [ __ ] be a

person i live in a house that's [ __ ]

i like just swinging around on trees i

like uh running from jaguars this is

life guys life is running from

crocodiles it's not living in a [ __ ]

suburban there's probably some that are

like that yeah i don't think so i think

i think

when it comes we're going to embrace it

we're going to embrace it the same way

you embrace cell phones the same way

embrace television there's going to be a

few holdouts i don't even have an email

address man those are those there's a

few and far between the good luck with

that [ __ ] face go move to the woods ted

kaczynski yeah i was just going to throw

ted's against

ted kaczynski was right this is

something that i think about sometimes

when i get really high that ted

kaczynski was a part of the harvard lsd

studies this has been proven ted

kaczynski they cooked his [ __ ] brain

when he was at harvard and then when he

went over to berkeley and became a

professor his goal was to make enough

money so that he could

implement this program and live in the

woods and then write his manifesto and

start killing people that were involved

in propagating technology he was

expunged from the harvard uh logs by the

way this is something my friend just

called me about so there's like this uh

private library and they used to print

people's names whenever they were part

of a university and he was one of a

handful of people that were expunged

from it i want to jump back to the one

thing joe

i want to be very careful with that word

conspiracy theorist

what i was what i was saying to you was

we we terraform our earth right

we terraform we change the environment

we do all this innovation

what is stopping us from thinking that

that's not being done i'm not saying it

is i'm saying what's stopping us from

thinking that that's being done on a

much bigger level on a cosmic level you

mean like aliens coming down doing that

to humans i'm telling you that there is

something here that's there's a fact you

know there's something there a craft

they're here they're not ours they're

here so the question is

what is that about and i'm just looking

at what we do with what you're

describing with technology

i think it's much more likely that the

same way we observe chimps and we

observed that they are now in the stone

age that they're observing us and that

they're recognizing that there is a

pattern that there is uh there's steps

that happen i mean carl sagan talked

about the different levels of

civilization and that you know if we

don't get past certain levels we're

never going to reach this i mean we're

in type 1 civilization we're going to

stay at type zero well we're in this

warring

polluting yeah pillaging we're awesome

civilizations

are awesome it's like well we're awesome

in a lot of ways you know but in that

way we're not well yeah we're we're

children that have immense power that we

didn't really the other thing is you're

using the immense power that other

people have created right i mean even

when you're driving a car you're

stomping on the gas like whew you didn't

invent the [ __ ] engine you didn't

invent tires there's all these things

that were in involved in the creation of

this thing that is

really outside of your

[Music]

grasp of understanding but yet you have

the ability to use it like a person with

a gun i'm just gonna bang bang bang

people you don't you didn't invent a gun

so like you've you've without the

intellect to craft and engineer and and

and manifest these creations you just

have access to them because you have

paper or you have bitcoin or you have

whatever the [ __ ] you're using using a

credit card now you have

almost no responsibility you just you

could just flippantly use these things

which is why

we uh

you know we're very childlike in our

actions because we haven't had to earn

the responsibility we haven't had to

earn these things that we've been able

to have and you've only been able to

have them because other people have

innovated and spent

ungodly amounts of time and effort and

focus in the lab to create these things

and then they've all put them together

and then what is the what's the reason

to put them together to profit well

what's the reason of prop well why are

you doing this so you can buy more

things what are we doing what are we

doing we're making better things that's

what we do that's all that's all we do

is make better things yeah why the [ __ ]

do we need oil why do we need oil why

can't we just burn wood and stay home

why can't we grow chickens and food in

the backyard why can't we do well we

[ __ ] can we certainly can people do

do it but we decide to make that almost

impossible our preferred way of living

is to stuff everyone into a very small

area where no one grows anything other

than weed

this is what la is la is 20 million

people with hard surfaces as many hard

surfaces as you can boy if you've got an

acre backyard in l.a holy [ __ ] look at

all that green this is amazing well no

that's the [ __ ] earth coming through

this weird sort of creation that we've

put on top of the earth but the goal is

that like new york city that's there's

none of it right you just got you've got

central park and they just got human

[ __ ] you stacked up no one's growing

anything and then constant work

everyone's up early go go go

innovate progress make that money so you

can buy more things and every year hey

apple where's this [ __ ] new phone as

if your phone isn't good enough yeah

like your phone's taking pictures and

videos and people are calling you and

you got applications to tell you which

way the wind's blowing it's not good

enough a blink of an eye blink of an eye

it's all gone though that you know like

10 000 years and the hoover dam goes or

whatever you know mount rushmore

disintegrates so it's amazing because we

have created that and and everything's

trying to spring up through that we keep

it maintenance down but we're we're a

blink man something hits

but we don't think that way well you

know you think in terms of your own life

right you think in terms of what you

want and what you need right now

you know what it's we are in many ways

this combination of this weird primitive

ape-like thing

with

the ability to calculate and manipulate

our world and our environment that makes

us wholly unique on top of that with

existential angst and and fear so what

do you do with that we [ __ ] water it

down with the anti-depressants give

these [ __ ] people some [ __ ] that

keeps them moving

they're worried about the future they're

trying to figure out what reality is if

this you're on a goddamn convertible

spaceship spinning a thousand miles an

hour hurling through infinity there's no

meaning to this thing just keep making

[ __ ] keep making stuff and then one day

they're going to be able to hit that

switch and this life will be born out of

innovation and thinking and progress and

technology and more than likely it's

probably going to be what we're seeing

that these things are that you're you're

observing

i'm not observing them but yeah

someone's obviously

are you implying that they're us

i don't think they are us but i think

they are what happens when things keep

going

it's not us just like we're not monkeys

right i'm not a chimp

oh that'd be cool

they're from here is your idea no no no

that this is what happens all over the

universe right yeah this is what

happened look here's the thing you know

i went to see brian cox's um

he has this amazing live show with robin

ins where they

they have these led screens these huge

screens with high resolution depictions

of the cosmos and one of the most

mind-blowing things

was he has this large-scale image of the

universe and it shows all the individual

galaxies of the universe and it just

keeps moving through all these galaxies

in three dimensions

and it's [ __ ] incredible but what's

stunning is the relative uniformity of

it even at you know i mean you're

obviously looking at

an incredibly small depiction of

something that's immensely large like a

galaxy of hundreds of billions of stars

you're seeing it as this little dot but

this little dot that's flying through

space surrounded by other little darts

with very similarly spaced distances

yeah

yeah so mike if we see uniformity in

that form in terms of like the distance

between galaxy so many galaxies is so

it's so similar they might vary slightly

and that slightly might be hundreds of

millions of light years right but but

but there's so much uniformity why would

we not assume that that uniformity

exists pretty much everywhere and that

all these things that you're seeing that

are so similar you do see binary star

systems you do see single star systems

like star but there's also some some

speculation that earth and that our

solar system is one time was a binary

star system right i mean that's one of

the the speculations about that that

object that they find outside the kuiper

belt that they think is 10 times larger

than earth they think it might have been

at one point in time a star but this

this uniformity that you see why

wouldn't we think that that

that has its same implications

biologically that there's some sort of a

biological uniformity and that this

happens

given the right sets of circumstances

you should tell them some of the stuff

that you read that you don't know is

true i mean if the the stuff was true

about the

propulsion stuff i mean anyway he well

what have you read

what you saw too and you know what are

you talking about

spill the beans bob

i gotta poke the bear here let's get

some more liquor in you

the um

well i mean

the again the the only thing i could

verify was what i had my hands on um

they were

you know there was talk of weapon

systems that there were different

projects project galileo project

sidekick was supposed to be weapon

applications of the craft

project looking glass had to do with

time any effects of time in the craft

now i don't think we're not

talking about making a time machine like

in science fiction but we're talking

about you know small distortions

intentional distortions of time and how

that can be

used

you know as a uh not as a well it was

part of a weapon program how are you

informed in this these again where

there's just those small briefings that

i read but

again i don't really like to talk about

those because i don't have any

information on them and it was just you

know small briefings but he told

commander fravor that what he saw might

have been a time dilation

well it could be because gravity affects

time you know space time i'm sure you've

heard of that and um

you know what what commander fraber saw

as he was in the f-18 approaching it he

said that he described it as a

ping-pong ball in a cup and shaking it

back and forth it was moving that fast

now obviously if there's anything inside

there

it it's going to be battered to hell but

you know my point was was that well one

of two things

either there's a gravitational envelope

in there which negates any inertia

effects

or

you are seeing through a gravity

distortion field

so you know just like you're looking at

a

a hot highway and you see

you know an optical distortion going

through there well the same thing

happens in gravity and the craft may not

actually be moving like that it may just

look like it because you're seeing you

can only see it through the field so it

may be making much more gentle moves i'm

not saying that's it but it has to be

one of the two

and the thing shows up 60 miles away

they noticed it on radar 60 seconds

after left commander favor but it was at

his cap point which is the next point he

was destined to go to

60 miles away and in 60 seconds on radar

the same object ends up there so it's

going a mile a second no

they i think the radar just picked it up

in 60 seconds

yeah it could have been there instantly

but yeah we don't know the cycle time

nobody knows that that's whole thing oh

so it cycles like radar cycles yeah it

doesn't it doesn't sweep but i mean it

scans yeah it's a planar array so it

just

you know

scans around it at random places that's

a spy one does the really cool yeah it

doesn't do the whole loop anymore right

the point uh the point is though that

the craft moved to his next location

before he knew where his next location

was gonna be jesus and

that's

i mean that's well documented

so that's uh that's a pretty shocking

piece of information what's fascinating

to me too is that you were discussing

this um the the way this reactor worked

and that these things were not really

connected

no nothing is connected

there's no wiring at all

that freaks me the [ __ ] out charge your

iphone you know yeah one wireless

yeah

yeah i mean that's the that's a simple

electromagnetic

yeah i know again but that's just simple

electromagnet magnetic induction right

but i mean tesla the scientist had this

concept of right

he wanted to send

wireless electricity through the sky and

westinghouse was like get the [ __ ] out

of here with that like when anybody

could just pull electricity out of this

meter yeah they couldn't they couldn't

just talk in the car right over and

trying to chill him out you know we're

talking about tesla and how he you know

he couldn't be metered and how it all

went down so it's funny bring it up yeah

yeah that that i mean who knows what

would have happened in terms of

innovation had he been allowed to go

forward with that well we probably

wouldn't have computers

you think

yeah i'm pretty positive i mean forget

about microelectronics well this is

dumping huge amounts of electromagnetic

energy in the air and yeah we'd be able

to wirelessly turn on our lights but

there'd be no radio communication the

interference would be something we could

would be overwhelming it would induce

electric currents in anything with a

small wire on it so integrated circuits

transistors would be disintegrated

before they were even you know tested

for operation so it it would it would

destroy [ __ ] us up yeah it would have

stopped us dead we'd have it'd be great

you could turn lighters on and heaters

from all over the place with no wires

but it would stop modern electronics and

if we became dependent on it it would

almost be like our dependence on fossil

fuels although it's destructive it's

very difficult for us to get off the

nipple

it would have changed the course of how

we developed which is so interesting

when you talk about if a civilization

another star system didn't even start

with fossil fuels they had 115 naturally

on their planet and they're like cool

anti-gravity is pretty awesome well the

fact that i think it's important that

that actually happened yeah

it might have been stopped in its tracks

for a reason

whoa

and

it's just it's i think it's incredibly

difficult for us to imagine

technological progression under another

timeline other than the one that we've

experienced yeah that's difficult

if we imagine what this

alien race must have been like and

i mean god

just just to be able to see something

take like i mean obviously we've seen it

in different life forms right like we

see the life of certain beetles in

comparison to the life of certain fish

very very different existence very

different life cycles octopus yeah

octopus yeah i mean we see all these

different variables in terms of

biological entities on earth but we

don't see it in terms of technological

innovation as we're the only one that's

intelligent that can innovate when we

have intelligent creatures but they're

in the ocean the only other thing that

are like us are dolphins and orcas and

whales and they don't have the ability

to manipulate their environment and

subsequently because they don't have the

ability to manipulate their environment

we put them in fish tanks and we're like

get in the tank do some tricks right

you know the only thing he saw in the

craft if we were considering bob's story

the only thing that you he saw in the

craft that he related to that looked

like a human could make was this

honeycomb hatch and i always loved that

because you're like obsessed with this

thing that you could recognize you know

the re yeah i i only focus on that

because it was the one thing that i

understood how it worked what was it and

it was it was the access to the level

below

and

it was um

well you know if you take uh

you have a six pack of beer and you take

out the cardboard dividers

set it on the table you can put a lot of

pressure on the top

but if you push it from the sides it

collapses flat

so it was something like that in a

honeycomb shape that was essentially

some sort of sheet metal and you could

walk on that in the upper layer but if

you took the corner stuck your finger in

and pushed it collapsed and made a

an entryway so i thought that was a

really unique i'd never seen that before

and it was the only thing in the craft

that made absolute sense to me i said ah

we can make that and all that is is a

hatchway was there any discussion about

the materials that were used to make the

craft

i'm sure there was but that was a

metallurgy division had nothing to do

with us so you never got a

not even the slightest briefing i don't

even know if it was metal or it was

ceramic it's i think it there's a fine

line between the two

now one of the things that's happened to

you that has allowed people to discredit

you was

there's obviously been some sort of an

effort to erase your past

yeah some sort of a ref uh an effort to

erase your education history your

employment history at los alamos in fact

the only way your employment history was

proven at los alamos is someone got a

list a directory of the employees from

the past

and read into it and you were on that

list so it proved that you worked there

even though people were trying to deny

and they were trying to use that as a

way to discredit you that you never did

work at los alamos you weren't really a

scientist

what was what was that like to

experience i mean of course we're

talking about the 1980s the 1990s when

you could get away with something like

that

yeah obviously there are a lot less

uh

a lot less records on computers at that

time it was still file cabinets and

folders but uh yeah that was frightening

that was one of the first things

i think it's i think george knapp was

the first one that uncovered that i mean

he saw my birth certificate disappear he

um it disappeared yeah there was no

record of you yeah there was there was

no record of that there was uh no record

his mom tells me about that like it was

frightening for her for he's got a real

family you know he's a real person it's

frightening for her

but if the los alamos thing really

surprised me and that they were so

adamant that no this guy never worked

here don't be ridiculous and george went

back and forth you know for i got the

letters on the wall yeah months i mean

it was ridiculous but fortunately

somebody came up with a 1982 phone book

directory i mean and also

uh originally i told you uh

you know when i worked there i was on

the front page of the the paper so they

were still able to archive you know

bring that back from the archives and

you know bob lazar a physicist working

here at los alamos so there was at least

something there but uh somehow george

came up with the phone director and then

george then bob took george with cameras

into los alamos oh yeah yeah so we flew

out there and i said look come on in

i'll show you where i worked we'll go in

we'll meet people and george went with

me and you know

i navigate the place oh yeah and you

know met people and you know and almost

was also the place where they had the

machine that was able to read the the

size of your digits no no that wasn't

awesome that was s4 that was s4 and

explain that

so

now this was back in the 80s and this is

back in the 80s where when you discuss

this people like this doesn't even exist

yeah okay what was it it was a way

you know this is before fingerprint

scanners and

you know and anything of

anything any high resolution scanner at

that time so what it was was a device

that uh had a little picture of a hand

on a glass plate with pins in it so you

could jam your hand in there and there

was a bright light above it and a sensor

underneath and when you put your hand in

there the light would turn on and it

would measure the bones in your finger

because the light shown through your

bones

and apparently

the length of the bones in your fingers

are extremely unique and easy to measure

and they use that when you put your

hands on there the light would turn on

and your badge would pop out there's it

right oh there it is that's that's it

and i tried to describe this um to

people and they said that is the most

ridiculous thing we've ever heard

and um

i said hey that my badge came out of

that thing i put my hand on it badge

popped out and that's how i could open

the doors and get into s4

and um you know and everybody

discredited that they said it was

[ __ ] it was science fiction and

jeremy you found this

i i found it through a good friend of

mine named tyler rogoway and he had some

good sources inside of area 52 where

they also used these for the stealth

program right around that time so now

i've got all these people that worked

within who you know said only if you're

in certain programs would we use this

technology it's kind of [ __ ] actually

they didn't keep it for very long

beginning of biometrics so i was able to

reveal it in my film i kept my mouth

shut until i showed it to bob you know

the movie is the first time he saw it

was how you see it in the documentary

that's his genuine reaction i'm getting

goosebumps that was a great idea the way

you did it thank you man because you

know what guess what i'm actually trying

to see if he's telling the truth that's

how i started you know that's how i

started so it was really cool to see

that that you get to see it his actual

reaction has that been verified by other

people yeah so

yeah so to me it has uh personally i get

emails every day and people are telling

me where these are used and how they're

used and send me photos i got a lot of

photos of identity mats now well how

they were used right they're not how

they were used yeah but uh i don't the

most recent one was

way more recent than i thought in

another country but yeah that technology

was used so what's so funny is

um

that this technology even in the area 52

where they'd use him for tonopah one of

the guys who will go on camera with me

he will do an interview with me he was a

technician for one of these and and he

hated them because they were really bad

they always broke down and never and he

was a technician for him now he won't

tell me where if he worked at area 52 so

it's probably tonopah

it's very separated even on base but

yeah so

there was that yeah there is your

education record that was also like what

happened with that

well that disappeared also you know that

i i've i've never gone

i've never gone anywhere for education

i've never gone i never attended any

classes at caltech i never attended

anything at mit

you did attend classes in those places i

did attend classes in those places do

you know anybody that you went to school

with

yes i do and have they verified that

they went to school with you well i gave

jeremy some names but people yeah i the

reason i don't say these names publicly

is because every single time i mention a

name somebody gets injured they don't

want to be of course yeah yeah of course

um but what what is that experience like

seeing your birth certificate erased

seeing your employment well it's

frightening it's it's absolutely

frightening it's also the fuel that the

debunkers use the so-called air quote

skeptics i don't like the term skeptics

i'm going to say this publicly because i

really only said this privately i think

it's a sloppy lazy way to look at things

to just be a skeptic

i want people to be objective

and i think there's a lot of things you

should be skeptical of i think you

should you should look at things and

look at things

from a hard-line science perspective you

should be subjective but the idea of

skeptics the problem with that is you're

always looking for things to be [ __ ]

yeah and i think that's dangerous

because i think some things aren't

[ __ ] it's confirmation bias on the

other end you're just deciding to take a

square thing and put it around hold no

matter what and i find a lot of them to

be lazy

a lot of them to be lazy thinkers sure

because they're always putting it into

that box instead of going hmm

instead of just separating their ego

they're trying they're playing a game

and the game is calling [ __ ] i want

to call [ __ ] and i'm gonna line up

all these reasons why it's [ __ ] and

i'm gonna ignore anything that might be

contrary to that definition yeah

every time i'm thinking i'm going to

catch him in something you know all

along this process um i found dr krangle

he came forward and said i was in

security briefings with bob lazar the

physicist at los angeles he went on the

record with me now the other people i

talked with why won't they go on the

record with me because they're still

working there

so that that's the difference right what

is that what can the public have right

or even if they're not working there

that you know they want to live their

lives why i mean obviously people have

seen what's happened to you mike thigpen

after 30 years yeah really if you look

at all the information on

you know concerning my accounts that's

that's verifiable

it can't possibly be a [ __ ] story

anymore it's really way past that point

yeah i mean that was my big pin is i

mean how could i possibly know

uh so mike fig pin

was the guy that did the security

clearances to go to the bait one of the

guys that was this is the guy that you

worked with he said he did

right and and george knapp you know

george didn't believe him george put him

through four polygraph tests right he

tried to see man this is a big risk it

sounds interesting but let's see if he's

telling the truth one of the things was

bob said there's a guy named mike

thigpen he did security clearances for

the base and that's a weird name it's

very specific

for 30 years george

found this guy in this weird department

that he didn't even know it was my big

pin the guy wouldn't talk to me ghosted

him totally ghosting for 30 years used

facebook and google image match through

his children i was able to find him

after 30 years and i talked to him three

times on the phone he lives on the east

coast he almost went on camera with me

confirmed that he did security

clearances for the base in 1989

confirmed he remembers bob lazar and

what you don't know is there's a

handwritten note that a friend of yours

has from mike what i know i'm gonna give

it to you later i don't but that is real

that is actual so a handwritten note

that says what you know like this is new

to me so when the i

when you're

when they do security client clearances

they go through all your friends and

they go to your friend's phone yeah yeah

so this is too bob and

i had people come to me for a friend of

mine that's serving and they're doing

the security clearance for him and even

though i'm like the ufo guy

they did you know the fbi come and visit

my house and make sure that they talk

about my friend and they lift a little

card and when my wife told him to get

away because he didn't know who they

were they left a little card it's super

cute now back then it was a handwritten

note and his friend has it for him that

you haven't seen in oh my god two

decades

so if you're listening

you're telling me what it is

what is this card

it's just a little handwritten note with

mike thigpen's signature card like like

a like a postcard

like a piece of paper that he left on

the door saying when bob gets back or

whatever it says on it so it's just

another little funny thing i found the

guy he does the security clearances he

admitted to me he did it and he admitted

to me he was dodging george knapp

because when george said his name on the

writ on the on the news he dropped his

fork into his steak or into his potatoes

or whatever and he's looking at his wife

he was in trouble his name's never

supposed to be out there like it's just

a security clearance guy but you don't

want national attention associated with

anything bob has to say but anyway this

unique name bob said for 30 years and

the guy ghosted george knapp george

could prove he existed he actually

talked to me man he talked to me three

times he almost went on camera with me

it's just crazy what what do you what

happens after 30 years you just get more

info well that's one of the reasons why

when you and me and jeremy and george

knapp had that conversation on the phone

yeah i said i think

what we can do

with this podcast

is important i really do i think it's

important for people to hear this

from you in a very clear

just very concise way

and if you examine all the information

that you've said today if you you look

at all the things that the detractors

have said if you look at all of the new

recent evidence that's coming out and

all these

really high-level people in the military

and the government that are discussing

this

it gives you

far more credibility than you would have

had in the 19 years when this came out

[ __ ] yes you can't ignore his story just

because you don't like it anymore that's

why i thought it was important that you

come out and refresh the world's memory

and let people know and like i said i've

been i mean i want to say i'm a fan of

yours but i guess i'm a fan of yours as

a human being i'm a fan of yours but

i've been following you for decades i've

been following the story for decades i

mean i'm kidding i have vhs tapes bob

like a lot of the world has yeah it's

crazy well anybody that has any sort of

uh a vested interest or a just a even uh

just a fascination with ufos has

followed your story because there's no

one else there's no one else that comes

for this some guy who said i worked

underground with the aliens they shot my

hand off like there's a bunch of wacky

dudes

they're underground there's bases

they're shooting lasers through the

earth's crust and they move them at

light speed there's a lot of those guys

they seem schizophrenic they seem crazy

they might even be disinformation agents

they might be people that are designed

to muddy the waters which for sure has

happened people are coming forward

though now it's amazing by doing this

what you're doing you're providing an

opportunity for bob to tell a story you

know believe it or not he can tell a

story it's amazing because more people

will come forward now

that are involved with these projects

they'll come forward to you to me

they're coming forward and so what

you've done here is provide that

opportunity if they need it and it's

amazing i just want to say bob just

don't come forward no don't come forward

to bob

why were you freaking nauseous at the

beginning of this like so

upset why was your why'd you have a

migraine because that started off so

hard my god i was sitting here like did

this why are you asking him why because

obviously anxiety the guy's gone through

30 [ __ ] years of being persecuted i

just want to erase his birth certificate

i just want to hear what you hear from i

want to hear him say i want them why did

i have to say that you don't just set it

up get it i step out okay settle down

yeah well i get it you were it was hard

for you to get them here you know and i

was for us yeah you you don't you do

what really annoys me are the people

that think you know you guys just came

up with the story to make a bunch of

money or get a bunch of you know

attention and that's a good point so

please explain that first of all i don't

get any money out of this at all and i

may i didn't even let you guys buy plane

tickets for me to come out here or

anything i mean

any time like when jeremy

uh pre-previewed i guess the movie up in

michigan

i mean they it brought in like a couple

thousand dollars i made sure that two

thousand dollars went to science

programs at the local high schools there

dirty money i don't want to touch it i

don't take any money from this stuff and

as far as attention

i hate [ __ ] attention i don't like

being on shows i just want to kind of

hide in the corner and do my own thing

so that's i got enough hugs when i was a

kid okay i don't need any attention so

now that if if you if you think somehow

we came up with this thing then you got

to tell me why we did it well you've

done a great job of

making sure you have your bases covered

in that regard that you haven't profited

off of this and like you said that you

have donated whatever money that came

your way to science programs it's i mean

it it doesn't make any sense

any other way

i mean what you're what i've gotten out

of here is what i thought i was going to

get out of here when i watched the

documentary that you what you're saying

makes sense it doesn't make sense that

it's [ __ ] that happened exactly like

i said it did joe i believe you

um in closing is there anything else

you'd like to say

no i can't think of anything other than

really don't come and try to visit me

[Laughter]

well um i know that you have paid a huge

personal cost to get this information

out and i mean maybe you didn't

understand what that cost would have

been when you first initially came

forward with the story but over the past

30 years it's been immense it's been

great and i just want to thank you for

that and thank you for all these people

that would not have gotten this

information and would not have really

had this story any other way

oh thanks joe thank you

and thank you jeremy and one more time

the documentary is available on netflix

right now yeah it's called bob lazar

area 51 and flying saucers all right

that's it folks good night

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[Music]

Deep AI for YouTube — beyond transcripts and summaries

Joe Rogan Experience #1315 - Bob Lazar & Jeremy Corbell

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Early career and recruitment

First days at Area 51 and initial exposure to alien technology

Briefings and the alien reactor

Objective of the project

Dangers of working with alien technology

The variety of alien crafts

Transition from excitement to concern

Testing the reactor

Witnessing a test flight

Personal consequences of involvement

Vindication through scientific discoveries and government documents

Technological implications

Origin of the craft

Current government interest in UFOs

Bob Lazar documentary

Merging of Humans and Technology

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