World Leading Investing Expert: The Big Shift Is Coming! This Investment Could 15x in 5 Years!

The Diary Of A CEO • June 05, 2025

TLDR

In this episode of The Diary of a CEO, Cathie Wood discusses disruptive innovation, focusing on AI, robotics, and blockchain. She highlights Tesla's AI leadership and Bitcoin's potential as a new asset class. Wood advises young people to prioritize learning and adaptation. She predicts growth in autonomous taxi networks and the transformative impact of AI on healthcare and emphasizes continuous learning and initiative to navigate the future. She shares her investment strategies, key stock picks, and concerns about potential disruptions caused by new technologies.

Timeline

Cathie Wood's Investment Focus and Background

Cathie Wood oversees nearly $30 billion in investments and focuses on technologically enabled companies poised to transform the world, particularly in robotics, energy storage, AI, blockchain, and multiomic sequencing.

AI's Disruptive Potential and Tesla's AI Leadership

Wood expresses concern that Apple may be disrupted by AI and suggests that Tesla is the largest AI project on Earth, highlighting the importance of prioritizing AI investments.

The Autonomous Taxi Revolution and its Economic Impact

Wood believes autonomous taxi networks could generate $8 to 10 trillion in revenue within 5 to 10 years and highlights Tesla's potential launch of Cyber Cabs and the broader implications for the transportation economy.

AI's Profound Impact on Healthcare and Gene Editing

AI is revolutionizing healthcare, enabling early cancer diagnosis via blood tests and gene editing technologies like CRISPR to cure diseases such as sickle cell anemia and beta thalassemia.

Tesla's Future Growth and Robo Taxi Platform

Wood was right about Tesla in 2015, but now predicts the stock to reach $2,600 in five years, with 90% of the valuation coming from the robo taxi platform, emphasizing recurring revenue models.

The Rise of Humanoid Robots and their Economic Role

Humanoid robots are advancing rapidly, driven by robotics, energy storage, and AI, with potential to dwarf the robo taxi business and address demographic challenges in developed countries.

The Emergence of Vibe Coding and its Implications

Vibe coding, using natural language for programming, is emerging, allowing for more customization and personalization, potentially replacing traditional software and creating new opportunities.

Accelerated Economic Growth through Innovation

Wood anticipates real GDP growth to accelerate to 7.3% in the next five years, driven by innovation platforms, urging investors to seize the moment and align with technological advancements.

Investment Strategies and Key Stock Picks

Wood discusses investment strategies, including Tesla, Archer, CRISPR, and Palantir, while highlighting the importance of original research, understanding cost curve declines, and identifying cross-sector technologies.

Bitcoin's Potential as a New Asset Class

Wood expresses confidence in Bitcoin as a new asset class, projecting a price target of $1.5 million by 2030, driven by institutional investments, digital gold adoption, and emerging market needs.

Investment Mentality and Risk Management

Wood emphasizes the importance of averaging into investments over time, especially in aggressive growth strategies like ARK ETFs, and advises investors to conduct their own research.

Concerns about Disruption and the Need for Adaptation

Wood sees deregulation and lower taxes as positives, but is concerned about people being caught out by new technologies and not adapting, and emphasizes the need for initiative and lifelong learning.

Advice for Young People to Succeed in Their Careers

Wood shares her approach to career success which involves making your boss look brilliant, continuous learning, and staying ahead of the curve in understanding technology and economics.

Visionary Ideas about Future Technologies

Wood envisions transformer robots and underground transportation systems on Mars, underscoring her forward-thinking perspective on technology and its applications.

Audio Summary

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Transcript

I've read through a decade of your

research to figure out what the best

investment is so anyone can get rich in

the future. And you've predicted that

this will grow by at least 5,000%.

Yes. And my conviction is so high

because of what I do on a day-to-day

basis. Is there a woman on planet Earth

that manages more money from an

investing capacity than you? Maybe not.

I'm overseeing nearly $30 billion. Okay,

so I might have $500. What should I be

doing with that? So, this is all you

need to know. Kathy Wood built a

multi-billion dollar fund by spotting

trends before anyone else. And now, with

over 40 years of market insight, she's

showing you how and where to invest,

too. AI is the biggest technological

disruption in history. And this

incredible rate of change is making

people uncomfortable. But if you are on

the right side of change, investment

opportunities and job opportunities are

going to be enormous. But people don't

know what to do. For example, many

people think Apple is a very safe

investment. It's probably going to be

disrupted by artificial intelligence,

but yet Tesla is going to be the

biggest. You've invested just over 2

billion in Tesla. Yeah. Because Tesla is

the largest AI project on Earth. So AI

has to be a top priority, not an

afterthought. So I've got questions.

What's your top 10 public stocks that

anybody could invest in? What's the

philosophy towards investing that will

make one rich over time? And then if I

want to invest in AI, how should I be

investing my money? According to our

research, these investments will go up

more than 10fold in the next 5 to 10

years and create incredible

opportunities for investors. So, number

one,

this has always blown my mind a little

bit. 53% of you that listen to the show

regularly haven't yet subscribed to the

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that you want me to speak to and we'll

continue to do what we do. Thank you so

much.

[Music]

Kathy Wood, is there a woman on planet

Earth that manages more money from an

investing capacity than you? Well,

there's probably not someone overseeing,

yes, nearly $30

billion. Uh, but I know there are teams

out there, including women, that manage

maybe a lot more than that. What is it

that you do? invest in companies that

are going to that are technologically

enabled and that that are going to

transform the world as we know it.

Robotics,

energy storage, artificial

intelligence, blockchain technology, and

multiomic sequencing in the life science

space. The last is the most complicated.

And how long have you been an investor?

I started when I was 20 years old at a

company called Capital Group and I was

introduced to the firm by Art Laugher.

Now Art Laugher, he's one of the most

important economists of our time. He

created something called the Laffer

Curve. He's advised most presidents

since President Nixon and he's advising

President Trump as well. And how is

these five big innovation platforms that

you speak of, how is that going to have

an impact on the average person's life?

Like why do they need to know this

stuff? How is it going to change their

decision-m and change their career?

Now that the world is moving so quickly

into this new world uh and Bitcoin has

become uh so successful an investment

many people are trying to figure out

okay how how do I get involved with the

new world and when I say get on the

right side of change we think there's

going to be a lot of disruption to the

traditional world order when I say that

in terms of people understanding What I

mean? I think many people think Apple is

a very safe investment because huge

hoarde of cash, very successful

smartphone, you know, number one market

share of smartphones in terms of

profitability by far. And yet we can

tell you and this was one of what's

called the mag six that led the stock

market over the last few years. The top

six stocks the top six stocks the market

was very narrowly focused on this ilk of

stock. And we were saying you know what

Apple is probably going to be disrupted

by artificial intelligence. And one of

the reasons we started asking questions

very early is what is the ultimate

mobile device? Ultimately, it's going to

be an autonomous

vehicle. Apple should have been all over

that and they were trying and we saw one

management turnover after another. This

is an AI project and what we were

learning as they were turning that team

over uh time and again is they they

weren't getting AI right. They were not

positioning correctly. Your concern for

Apple? I think Apple it has so much

cash. It has such a loyal customer base.

uh it will be fine but maybe it's

revenue growth has slowed to almost

nothing and so maybe it'll be a mature

cash cow that's not what we do we invest

in technologically enabled disruptive

innovation AI is the biggest dis

technological disruption in history and

if they're not going to get it right

we're not going to be there so if I want

to invest in AI if I agree with you

Kathy and I said you know I think I

think you're right that AI is the

biggest technological wave coming into

shore and the biggest opportunity h how

should I be investing my money in in in

your view how are you investing your

money to capitalize on AI many people

used to invest in AI through one stock

that was Nvidia that was the check the

box I own the GPU the chip manufacturer

which is the most important uh chip

manufacturer in the AI age and its

valuation meaning its uh price relative

to earnings um really got up to very

heady levels and we were saying at the

time well if Nvidia's valuation is

correct there there there are going to

be a lot of other winners who are they

uh well our largest position and the

flagship strategy ARK is Tesla and as we

were trying to help people understand

why we were swapping away from Nvidia to

stocks like Tesla and Palunteer which is

a software provider. Um we were trying

to explain that this new world around AI

is going to happen very quickly and uh

Tesla is the largest AI project on

earth. Uh I posted that on X and Elon

liked it. So it must be

true. But it is true if our research is

correct. Uh we believe that um the

entire ecosystem associated with

autonomous uh taxi networks is going to

be worth 8 to10 trillion dollars in

terms of revenue generation in the next

5 to 10 years. And if you want to put

that in context, the the entire GDP of

the world today is about 130 trillion.

So 10 trillion is going to move the

needle. Tesla are launching their first

cyber taxi, I believe, in Austin in June

potentially. Yes, it so the Cyber Cabs

will launch next year, but in Austin in

June, those will be Model Y's. and I'm

looking to buy another Model Y because

it will in effect be a cyber cab. Okay?

And if I chose to, I could have my Model

Y drive me to work and then let it out

for the day and earn money on it, have

it pick me up at the end of the night.

And some people will do that. And Tesla

will provide the platform for that. I

think a lot of people don't realize just

how much of the economy is about

driving. Yes. So taxis, deliveries,

these kinds of things. It's a hu is it

the single I think it's the single

biggest employer in the world. Yes.

Transportation broadly defined. Yes. And

and it's not just on the ground of

course. Uh as we've studied uh

autonomous taxis uh moving forward uh we

believe the cost of transportation will

come down fairly dramatically. So, uh,

in the US today, an Uber costs roughly

$2 to4 per mile. Mhm. Um, at scale. Now,

this may not be for 5 to 10 years, but

this is the direction that Tesla

certainly is headed. Uh, we believe that

Tesla will be able to offer a service

for 25 cents per mile. And because of

that, we think there will be much more

congestion in the roads. When you cut

the price of something, you get more of

it. Yeah. And that led us into the air.

And so we've been stud studying EV

talls. Um what's an EV tool? EV tall is

an electric vehicle takeoff and landing

like a drone type. A drone but for for

people. Yeah. So we own Archer in our

portfolio. And of course AI is a part of

this new world as well. Um, and it's a

part of the defense world as well as we

are trying to save our soldiers and um,

and move out there with autonomous

drones. So, autonomous uh, mobility on

the ground, in the skies, ultimately on

the water. So, so Tesla, so that's one

big we we think that's going to be the

biggest in the short term in terms of

revenue generation. The biggest

application of AI. We think the most

profound application of AI is going to

be in healthcare because of AI and this

is already beginning to happen. uh we

are able to

diagnose cancer with a blood test in

stage

one. Think about that. If you discover

cancer in stage one, you can save most

people, right? And maybe even before

stage one. Why? This is the convergence

of sequencing technologies. So DNA, RNA,

protein sequencing

uh technologies and then the third uh

technology that is breakthrough and

already making a difference is crisper

gene editing. The convergence of those

three technologies is beginning to cure

disease. So, uh, a company called

Crisper Therapeutics, which is one of

the largest in our ARKG fund and in the

top 10 in our ARK fund, uh, has

developed a therapy uh, to cure sickle

cell disease with and betthalmia. Both

of those are blood related diseases with

one treatment. Think about that. Now,

the preconditioning for that is

gruesome. It's it's it involves it's

almost like chemotherapy which is going

to change. Uh but nonetheless there's

huge demand for it because you know

these people go to the emergency room 10

to 20 times per year for blood

transfusions to save their lives. Of

course they're going to go through a

tough regimen. They want to live a more

normal life. Uh so it's already

generating revenue. Both both of those

are already generating revenue for

Crisper Therapeutics and a company

called Vert.Ex. So there's there's well

there's three or four different

companies you've mentioned here. Tesla,

the other one was Archer. Archer is the

EV tall company. Yes. Which is your

flying cars, basically your drone cars.

Yes. And Chrisper and Tesla. So if I

start with Tesla, you were bullish on

Tesla. You were making big predictions

about Tesla before pretty much anyone

else out there. I think in 2015. Mhm.

And at the time in 2015, you said that

you believed the stock would get above

4,000 roughly right on the old stock.

Yeah. On the before the stock split. And

you were right by some significant

margin. Um I think you predicted it

would be 4,000 before the stock stock

splits. And I think at its peak that

equates to about 18,000 maybe 12,000 at

its peak. Yes. Well, in that region, we

we we were right about two early years

or Tesla was got to where we believed it

would go two years before most expected.

You know, in 2018 and 19, many people,

as Elon was des discussing and

describing production hell for the Model

3, um, many people thought the company

would go bankrupt. And uh and yet we

knew that if Elon Musk could create a

reusable rocket that could land on a

barge in the water, he would be able to

figure out how to produce at scale the

Model 3. That was to us a simple um

conclusion. Now as in hindsight as we're

learning from Tesla production hell and

they themselves were worried that's why

Elon slept on the floor in the

production factory and just became

maniacally involved which is how he

works uh as uh so yes and now our

prediction the stock is I'm not going to

be exactly right on this 270 280 uh

dollars uh our prediction in five years

is 2600

And 90% of that valuation comes not from

the electric vehicle but from this robo

taxi platform. Uh because the electric

car if you think about it is you know a

one-shot sale. You know sell and hope

they come back when they're replacing

their car. This essentially means that

we'll be driving cars that we can click

a button and then then it becomes an

autonomous taxi. So I go on holiday, I

have my my Tesla car at my house. When I

go on holiday, the car turns into a taxi

and starts chauffeering people around.

It makes me money. But also from the

consumer's perspective that are trying

to hail a taxi. At any point I can go on

my Tesla app, I press a button, a

autonomous car comes to me with no one

driving it and it takes me to my

destination with no driver at all.

Right. Um and then the recurring revenue

model I believe is you sub you

subscribe. It probably could it it could

be a sub you could subscribe to the

network or they could uh you know maybe

it could be either or subscription or

allocart if you don't think you're going

to use it that much. So now when I'm

here in the UK and Europe many people do

not believe what what you just said and

and they don't because your regulators

have not allowed FSD here. I think they

might I somewhere in Europe I think

they're beginning to consider it. Maybe

even in the UK here they have are

considering it. Um in St. Petersburg,

Florida where we're based, um I can go

from my house to anywhere and flawlessly

the car will take me there. Now, we

still have to sit in the driver's seat

for now, but in June,

uh, or soon thereafter, when they turn

the system on, if regulators permit,

right now we're state byst state. I

think that's going to change so that

we'll have federal regulations so that

this can happen a lot faster. One other

thing about Tesla though in that 2600 uh

dollar number, we do not include much

for humanoid robots. Now I this and and

this is happening faster than we

thought. Um h and the reason it's

happening faster is humanoid

robots they are the convergence of the

same three technologies or innovation

platforms as robo

taxis robots robotics so actuators and

so forth getting them to work energy

storage battery operated and AI

so Tesla is way ahead of the game on

humanoid robots and yet we have very

little. Now, Elon thinks that the

humanoid robot business is going to

dwarf the robo taxi business and we

think he's right. Uh, but longer term.

So, as I mentioned, we expect all in

around the world, including China, not

just Tesla, but the entire ecosystem, an

8 to uh 10 trillion dollar market uh in

the next 5 to 10 years. for humanoid

robots. Uh we expect a $26

trillion revenue market. Now that's

going to be a little further along. Uh

robo taxis will happen faster, but it

may not be as distant as we were once

thinking. For anyone that doesn't know,

humanoid robots are basically robots

that we'll have in our home and at work.

Mhm. So these are there was a video that

I think um Elon retweeted the other day

showing one of the human humanoid robots

dancing. Dancing. Yes. Was that real? I

was like looking at that video thinking

surely that's not real. But he confirmed

I believe that it was real. Yes. Yes.

Now when we went to the Cyber Cab event,

uh there were some humanoid robots

dancing there, but they were tethered

and they were remotely controlled. Yeah.

Uh now Cyber Cab, I think was about a

year ago. Yes. Maybe. So since then

they've been able to untether them and

uh I do believe that those that dancing

robot was was um not tethered and not

remotely controlled. It was quite

shocking to see a robot doing that

because if a robot can have that

dexterity and

mobility and then you overlay that with

the AI technologies that are

accelerating rapidly, it begs the

question and the question is quite clear

which is what about humans? Yes. Um, and

just to put a finer, you know, note on

this, um, Elon will not be satisfied

until these robots can thread a needle.

So, that's where we're going. What does

that mean for humans? So, you know, the

history of

technology is that it has been a net job

creator throughout history, but humanoid

robots are getting awfully close to what

we do, right? So, it's a good question.

I I think creativity is a big part of

that. Ingenuity and creativity. And, you

know, I think there's going to be a

there are going to be a lot of new

inventions uh in the future. So, let's

see what those are. But even today

there's something called vibe coding.

Have you heard of it? Okay. Because

we've moved into the world of natural

language programming. What is vibe

coding for someone that doesn't know?

It's vibe coding means you know a

natural language. I know we all know a

natural language. Ours is English for

the most part but could be any language.

Um, we're going to be able to go to

chatgbt or to especially now they just

launched I think last week something

called codeex replet uh and anthropics

fantastic for for um programming and

we'll say this is what I'm attempting to

do in English language and and I've seen

demos of this just internally we we're

going to replace some of our software

that we're buying from outsiders and

customize it for us because, you know,

we don't have to buy offtheshelf

anymore, one sizefits-all. I think

there's going to be a lot more

customization and personalization and

creativity explosion here. You know,

it's interesting that this is happening

when the demographic profile of the

developed world is as it is. We have a

very low unemployment rate in the US. I

know the unemployment rates in Europe

and the UK have been dropping. to much

lower levels than where where they were

stuck for years. I remember thinking,

"Wow, double digits." Uh we have a

demographic issue. I mean, if you if you

watch what uh Elon Musk worries about

the most, he he worries about the

population implosion

uh because collapse collapse in

population in the developed world um

because we're not uh u we're not

producing children above the fertility

rate. We're we are setting up for a

shrinkage with China is going there,

Japan is going there. And so we're going

to need productivity

uh productivity to help us if we can't

find human

beings. Uh okay. So you're so you're

saying that the robotics and AI could

actually fill the gap that we lose in

terms of productivity because our

society is going to be like an inverted

pyramid. It's going to be more um

elderly people and less young people.

Yes. Yes. So the robots are going to

Yes. Absolutely. It's productivity is

going to be essential. So, as we're

looking at real growth ahead and when

you think about real growth,

uh you should be thinking, okay,

somebody's benefiting from this. Um, and

I'm going to set what I I'm going to set

up the number here, uh, by describing

what has happened historically. If you

look from 1500 to

1900 and you try and figure out what

real GDP growth was back then, real

economic growth, um, as best as uh,

Brett Winton, our chief futurist in

consultation with academics can

determine, it was roughly

0.6% per year. And then we had the

industrial revolution. Uh we had the

internal combustion engine, telephone,

electricity. And for the past 125 years,

real GDP growth has been

3%. And and most li living standards

have gone up over time. Some more than

others. I know that's a debate, but most

have gone up.

If we as we look forward based on the

five innovation platforms around which

we have centered our research and

investing, if we're right, real GDP

growth in the next five years could

accelerate to

7.3%. And that gives you a sense of uh

the economic e uh activity wealth

generation out there. And what when we

are presenting to investors, we are

actually presenting to them not only

because they're investors, but because

they have children or grandchildren who

need to adapt to this new world. And our

mantra in giving away our research,

which we do, is get on the right side of

change. We also do podcasts. Um we we

try we do a lot of outreach because we

think this is a very important moment in

time. Uh seize the moment grab hold of

these new technologies because that

growth rate is more than twice where

we've been. And if you are on the right

side of change, we think the

opportunities are going to be enormous.

Uh investment opportunities and job

opportunities. Yeah. I I feel like I've

I feel like

um I feel like I can't figure out what

how the displacement rate meets the

creation rate. So the destruction rate

of of current jobs will meet the

creation rate of new jobs because many

of these new jobs I I guess there's some

of them we can't predict yet. I

understand that. But even the ones that

we can't predict yet would need to be

inherently human i.e.

need the skills of a human for them to

be occupied by by humans. Um, so what

category of stuff is that? Like my my

girlfriend's a breath work practitioner.

She's upstairs now with 10 women and

she's teaching them breath work. Okay.

So she's fine. Yeah. Like cuz they're

doing that in person. What? Whatever.

She's fine. Well, and maybe she's not if

people decide to do it on. Yeah. On

chachi. But but if they want to be with

a group of women Yeah. and you know

learn from an expert whom they respect.

There's as much the social experience

that's going to become more important.

Relationships are going to become more

important. Many people in our business I

think are going to be out of jobs

because uh the business has become

really nothing I I shouldn't be this

disrespectful and it's not not quite

right but uh at all uh but you know so

many are just hugging benchmarks

uh whether it's S&P 500 or MCI world or

the NASDAQ that a machine can do that a

machine can do that easily and that is

what passive investing is is machines

doing it. I think in order to earn a

place in the new world, you've got to

add a lot of value, more value than a

machine can. So, in our case, we're

saying, okay, well, our stocks are not

in those benchmarks. Uh, and

therefore, you know, they're they're we

are doing original research trying to

figure out who they are and where they

are. these these companies that are

going to transform the world. Why can't

AI replace what you're doing in terms of

so and we think about that all the time.

can use pattern recognition. It's all

based on history, right? Uh it can use

pattern recognition maybe to do what

we're doing. What are the three

characteristics that define an

innovation platform for us? The most

important one is they follow something

called rights law which measures the

learning curve. How fast the costs are

going to decline with this new

technology. Technology is deflationary.

Costs fall over time and they're passed

through into lower prices or better

performance one or the other. Um that is

the most important. A machine can figure

that out I'm sure. But asking the

questions are going to be important.

Like there wasn't before 2014 when we

started arc much on autonomous mobility

or EV talls or for that matter AI. AI

had become science fiction. There

weren't any breakthroughs in recent

years but then we got some

breakthroughs. So could so rights law is

the first figure out that cost curve

decline and and see how quickly the

technology can prolificate uh

proliferate across sectors. That's the

other criteria criterion here. The

technologies that we are following are

going to cut across economic sectors and

apply uh to more than one group of

people. And then the third is that these

technologies serve as launching pads for

new technologies. So in the case of DNA

sequencing, which was the base

technology, we needed that before

crisper gene editing uh could be

created. We needed to be able to

understand what was mutating in the

genome, where the programming errors

were so that gene editing could come in

and edit out those programming errors.

And do you think in five 10 years from

now that unemployment is going to be

higher or lower?

In five or 10 years,

um let's let's assume we don't have a

policy mistake and and a recession. So

just just steady state I think it will

be the same or lower and most of this is

because those baby boomers are retiring.

Uh so they come out of the employ they

come out of the labor force and uh and

the generations following them are

smaller. Even now what's happening is uh

we're we're passing through the baby

boom echo meaning the children of the

baby boom that cohort

was I don't think it was any bigger than

the baby boom uh the baby boom

population. Do you think there's because

of the speed of and the acceleration of

AI the like just the the length of

careers has radically reduced because

you would go to like you would go to

school then you go to university you

qualify as I don't know an accountant

and that's like a 10 15 year process you

get a job as an accountant you start

working your way up but now with AI

coming in these some of these jobs are

being completely

annihilated extremely quickly at the

same time vibe coding yeah is booming.

So I think what's going to happen and

this will be very healthy for

productivity. We're going to have a lot

more experimentation and people taking

risks on themselves. Uh and maybe this

idea of a corporation as we know it is

going to change radically. You know

crypto is enabling distributed

autonomous organizations.

uh just like Bitcoin there's there's no

no one governing it right uh that it's a

distributed network and you know let's

see how these do and how vibe co coding

and AI integrate into the crypto I and

I'm going to stop calling it crypto

because it's really should be called

digital assets world which legitimizes

it more crypto sounds nefarious

digital assets is where you know more

than young people and I'll say young

people are spending more than half of

their discretionary their free time

online and so property ownership online

is becoming more important it's it's

being legitimized by the way people are

spending their time on this point of

robotics and AI your your biggest

position I believe is Tesla isn't it in

your fund yes um but obviously Elon

decided Ed that he wanted to go into

politics and he wanted to do oh Elon the

department of government efficiency

called Doge. So teaming up with Trump to

try and eliminate government waste. Now

as an investor Mhm. you

must not love that. Well I I have two um

I have because it did impact two points

of view performance of the company. Do

you know I have I drive a Tesla when I

go to America and it was the first time

ever on the last trip to America in

January. I live in LA now um where I'm

driving my you know my cyber truck. It's

the full self-driving. It's incredible.

But it was the first time ever I thought

I like I could be attacked. So I

probably shouldn't get a cyber truck. I

should probably get something else cuz I

heard of all these reports of people

being attacked. And so it was quite

interesting to hear in the earnings

report which I listened to that there's

been this decline in revenue um in

profitability in vehicle sales growth

etc. in Q1 of this year which I think

even Elon in that in that earnings call

highlights is a consequence of him

becoming political. Yes. Uh I think that

surprised him. Um so I have many

thoughts about this. Our government has

become so bloated. It is scary and uh

our indebtedness is growing. And if we

want to remain the reserve currency of

the world, we're at risk of of losing

it. And and on our tail is the whole

digital asset world, right? So, um,

government spending is taxation. It's

either taxation that's going to happen

immediately or will happen in the future

or will happen through inflation, which

is the most regressive tax at all. So I

think his that the the sentiment was was

right in terms of you know getting in

there and seeing what technology can do

for the government which is really

what's happening. I'm watching it in the

FDA how they're starting to use AI. It's

phenomenal what's happening. Uh so the

question I usually get so I I'm very

happy that ha half of the solution is

understanding the problem that someone

is in there with that focus and

determination. He of course has said

he's stepping away uh this month as a

matter of fact to spend more time with

his companies which you must be happy

about. Well, of course I'm happy about

it, but I I have with the exception of

this political dynamic, I don't think

that Elon uh not being there on a

day-to-day basis is what has caused the

problem in the first quarter. It was

much more macro. We had a negative

quarter in real GDP growth in the first

quarter. So macro which is hitting

everyone and the overlay of this

political dynamic the news cycle thank

goodness moves fast and so we'll we'll

be through that I think and by the way

there are news reports even this weekend

saying those who were feeling about him

you know as it relates to Doge and you

know one party are having a change of

heart because tax rates are going to

come down because we're being more

disciplined on the on the government

spending side. Elon's way

of managing his companies is to attract

the best and the brightest not only

scientists, engineers but also business

people. Uh they these are people who

want to solve the hardest problems in

the world.

um he sets a timeline that seems uh

reasonable to him for milestones to

occur and he doesn't interfere unless

they start missing those milestones or

the timing of those milestones. Then he

gets involved and that's where you hear

he'll go in and he'll just fire people

wholesale and you know and and you know

get the program going again. And he's

he's done that certainly at Tesla. He's

done that at all of his companies. And

so he's really troubleshooter in chief.

Once he understands and has set a

strategy, he then becomes troubleshooter

chief. Have you met him? Oh, yes, we

did. Actually, our uh first podcast with

him was in 2019. Oh, I saw that during

during production hell. Yeah. And uh we

were so happy. So, as you know, we have

a social strategy. So, we push our

research out through social media as we

give it away or as we're evolving it.

And uh he liked a piece of research that

Tasha Keiny had put out on autonomous

back then. And I was on a phone call. I

couldn't get off, but I heard this

whooping and screaming through the

office. And I I I thought it sounded

good. It wasn't an emergency, so I I

didn't have to leave that call. But I

got out. I said, "What happened, Elon?"

And I said, "Okay, ask him if we can do

a podcast." And we were there the next

week. Oh, incredible. Yeah. What do you

think of him as an entrepreneur? I think

he's the Thomas Edison of our age in

terms of uh in terms of his

um in innovative

ingenuity.

And I also think having met him a number

of times, I think he's a very good

person. He wants to do the right thing.

If I had to say one thing, he wants to

do the right thing to transform the lot

of most of humanity. And he started

uh w with Tesla, SpaceX and Tesla. SP

Tesla, you know, was a an environmental

move, which I think a lot of people

attacking his cars, who are probably

very um supportive of the environmental

movement, uh they they've forgotten

sending a a rocket to Mars and with

humanoid robots and ultimately people um

he thinks will

transform life on Earth as well Because

as we've learned from space history, uh

what we learn about material science and

technologies that help us break through

into these very difficult or problems to

solve is going to help us here on earth

as well. Uh so I think he's a very good

person and wants to do the right thing

that if I had to describe him that's

what I say other than genius of our

time.

I often wonder I you know because he's

had such a profound impact on the world

in many many ways through the companies

he started. I think the uh the biggest

risk really is just his own his own

health. He doesn't seem to sleep much

you know though he he says that he does

sleep. I think he he he he recommends I

think if I'm right on this getting seven

hours sleep a night. Uh uh and yes but

when when he is

focused you know it I mean people even

look they they there were many pictures

of him whether it was standing you know

with other policy makers and then he

zones into something and you know he's

zoned in and thinking about only that

and a problem that he wants to solve. So

you've invested what? Just over two

billion in Tesla. Let's see. So it would

be roughly Yes. In that region. Mhm.

Bitcoin. Mhm. You invested in Bitcoin

very very early. What was the the first

price what that you bought Bitcoin for

in I think it was 2015.

Yes. It was in um the summer of 2015. Uh

we got in at roughly

$250. Uh today it's

$104,000 I think roughly. So we did get

in very early and we knew we were on to

something really when people were making

fun of us saying okay that's a marketing

trick. You're you're new to our business

and you know new to our to the new fund

world and uh you're trying to attract

attention. And we were thinking wow they

have no idea how much research we've

done on this. and Art Laugher,

uh, my professor again from USC, we had

him, uh, we had him read our first white

paper on Bitcoin. Bitcoin, could it

serve the three roles of money? So means

of exchange, what we use every day uh to

to buy

things, store of value, uh like gold,

and unit of account, would prices be

quoted in terms of Bitcoin? Chris

Berniski was our first analyst on

Bitcoin, wrote the paper, art

read, and you know, from added to it

enormously in terms of economic theory,

which was great for us.

And then he said to us, he said, "This

is what I've been waiting for since the

US closed the gold window in

1971. A

rules-based

global monetary system like Bretton

Woods under the gold exchange

standard." And I said, "Art, that's a

very big

idea. How big is it?" and he said,

'Well, how big is the the monetary base

of the US? Back then it was 4 and a.5

trillion and Bitcoin's market cap or

network value was 6 billion. And I said,

"Okay, that's a very big idea." And we

were trying to get it into our

portfolios. regulators were hesitant and

uh but I bought it right then for for

myself and haven't sold it and I'm very

happy with it. You bought it for

yourself personally personally because

we couldn't buy it

$250. So, we couldn't buy it back then,

but we finally got through the

regulatory process and we were able to

put the New York Stock Exchange said,

"Okay, you can put a 1% position in the

portfolio and it was of a grantor trust

called

GBTC." So, we did and we just never sold

it. They didn't tell us we had to keep

it at se at 1%. So, Oh, it's risen to be

more than Yes, it it ballooned. And what

is it about Bitcoin that you believe was

and is still a a good investment

opportunity for the average person? Yes.

So at this at this price it's about a $2

trillion

uh market cap and so halfway to that

original $4.5 trillion. But our price

target actually has expanded since then.

Um because it's not just a global

monetary system. It is a new asset

class. And that's a very big idea as

well. What makes a new asset class? And

we haven't had one truly since uh

equities in the 1600s. When you say a

new asset class, you mean a completely

new category of of funding companies.

Yes. Right. And so an asset class would

be something like technology is an asset

class, right? No, it would be like

stocks, bonds,

commodities, real

estate. This is a new asset class and

most people will agree with that. We we

did a study on it. If this asset does

not perform like other assets, in other

words, it provides diversification for

funds and because it is behaving

differently, institutions have to

consider it uh because they're competing

against each other and if one puts it

in, they all know they're competing

against each other. So others have to

consider it. And uh we believe that part

of the opportunity has not been tapped.

And just to put some numbers on this,

right now we're approaching 20 million

Bitcoin outstanding, which means the

number of Bitcoin that uh have been

minted over time

uh by Bitcoin miners. So there's 21

million in total, right? There will be

at the end of the minting process

21 million. So we have only 1 million to

go. Yeah. Uh 1 million would be what is

that? That would be a hundred billion

dollar worth a little more than that

right now. So, just for someone that

might not know much about Bitcoin,

Bitcoin is mined using computers and so

far they've mined 20 million of them and

there's 1 million of them left to mine.

Yeah. So,

institutions really just started

considering Bitcoin because the SEC gave

the great uh the the green light uh to

Bitcoin with uh the the approval of the

spot Bitcoin ETF in January of last

year. And it takes a while for

institutions to do their research and

and commit. Uh and so they're just now

committing. And there's only a hundred

billion dollar of new market cap uh that

is going to be created whereas they have

trillions of dollars under

management. Um and so we think there

will be a lot of incremental demand and

uh to satisfy a lot of that demand

someone's going to have to sell which

means the price goes up which yeah if

people don't want to sell because

Bitcoin's been awfully good and our

forecast right now it's um right now the

Bitcoin is around 100

105,000 our forecast

uh for 2030 is $1.5

million. And we do that

uh the building blocks for that, the

three biggest building blocks are

institutional, we just barely

started. Uh store of value or digital

gold. Young people are much more uh

comfortable with digital gold than gold.

So on the institutional side that means

institutions, investment institutions

start investing in it, young people

start investing it in it as a way to

save and store their money. Yes. Yes.

And then uh the the the

the very important use case that many

people do not discuss is how important

bitcoin and stable coins which are

backed by US treasuries are going to

become to the emerging markets. uh in

emerging markets, many of them are at

the whim of policy makers who uh show no

discipline in fiscal or monetary policy.

And so they they're used to going

through booms and busts and booms and

bailed out by the IMF and they need an

insurance policy. So if you're in

Venezuela, you need a currency that's

going to be stable. Exactly. Well, this

Bitcoin is uh so stable coins are stable

visav uh the dollar u Bitcoin is more of

an investment

because it does appreciate over time.

Now you go through it's volatile no

question and that's the first thing

people have to know about it. Uh but it

is becoming less volatile as more and

more investors hold it. So, you think

Bitcoin will

potentially multiply in value by 15

times in the next five years?

Wow, that'd be pretty crazy. It's a very

big idea because it is a new asset

class. It does represent a global

monetary system unlike any other digital

asset out there. Um, it is backed by the

largest computer network in the world.

the the layer one which is the base

layer has not been hacked. Think about

that since 2009 when it was released not

been hacked. How many ho how many

systems can say that? And it is a

technology. It is native to the

internet. And

again digital assets or any Bitcoin,

Ether,

Salana, all of them exist because

they're vying to be the native

currencies to the internet and to to

enable smart contracts and really

transform the financial services

industry. Why did you invest in

Coinbase?

Coinbase is

um an exchange for for digital

assets and uh and increasingly

derivatives. It has just it has gone

global. It just bought Darabit which is

the largest options uh exchange out

there. uh and it owns a futures. So,

it's really going after uh the

derivatives market where there's a huge

amount of activity which is fantastic

because it's all legitimizing digital

assets and it is the most regulatory

compliant exchange in the world. Um,

Binance is a another major exchange, but

has had more run-ins with regulators

around the world and really hasn't been

allowed into the United States. It also

wants to

become part of the new payments

infrastructure and so is evolving

strategies that way as well. Um, we've

gotten to know management very well.

They fought the fight against regulators

in a magnificent way and they have

educated policy makers um importantly

who understand that this innovation we

almost lost this innovation to the rest

of the world because of our regulatory

stance. uh they've helped policy makers

understand that hey you know this this

infrastructure is what developers did

not build in to the internet in the

early 90s because they didn't know

finance or commerce would take place

that's all this is that simple right so

if I'm trying to invest in just to

summarize then if I'm trying to invest

in AI that your key positions there and

your key thoughts are companies like

Tesla I heard you invest in Twilio. Uh

we we had invested in Twilio. They had a

ma they had a management turnover. So we

moved away from that. But uh Palunteer

Palanteer Yes. Palanteer is a platform

as a service company which we think uh

is not only going to help governance

move governments move into the digital

age like our defense department and now

it's moving into other departments but

also these huge huge

enterprises because it's not forcing

them to rip and replace anything.

they'll build on top of whatever

technology infrastructure is there and

over time just usurp the role of the

legacy technologies. So very important

company we think in uh the digital age

it's had a very big run. We have taken

profits and you know while it was having

a big run Nvidia was selling off it was

down more than 50% so we put some of our

Palunteer proceeds in back into Nvidia.

Is there anything else in the AI bucket

when you're thinking about stocks? Well,

when you're thinking about uh chip

companies in particular,

uh TSM is the platform for chip

manufacturing. It doesn't matter who

wins. We we do think there are going to

be many more competitors to Nvidia.

Nvidia is still number one. Have you

heard about Grock? Oh, yes. Grock we are

invested in in our um in our private

fund. Oh, okay. So, just for people that

might be confused, do you mean with a Q?

Oh, yes. That's that's in our private

fund. We don't we do own Grock and

that's a very important company on the

inference side of um of the equation.

I've invested in Grock as well. Yeah, I

should probably disclaim that. Well, I

think I think you're going to do very

well. Um so TSM though is where all the

chip manufacturers go uh for production.

It is the most sophisticated

manufacturer of chips uh in the world.

Uh there is geopolitical risk there.

Most of its business is in Taiwan. It is

diversifying into uh certainly into the

US and I think even into Europe. Uh so I

think uh that will continue to be a very

important company as well. So, what are

the what are your what's your top 10 in

terms of public stocks that anybody

could invest in if you had to give me

your top 10? So, I'd have to give you

and they're listed on our website and I

won't go in order, I'm sure, but of

course Tesla, Coinbase,

uh Robin Hood, uh Roku is uh an

operating system for connected TVs,

highly misunderstood stock. Crisper

Therapeutics which uh is gene editing

gene editing for cickle cell disease and

uh betaththalmia

uh palunteer I think I've mentioned uh

in the AI software space archer just

moved into the top 10 it's the EV tall

company which and it also signed a deal

an exclusive deal on both sides which

was quite impressive uh with anderol

which anderil which is the u most

sophisticated defense tech play uh and

is growing like gang busters. So so

that's terrific. Shopify

uh which is a shopping platform back end

and really using uh AI Roblox. Oh that's

the one we're missing. Roblox

which is a game right? Yes. It's a

usergenerated gaming company. Uh the

fascinating and it's also a social

platform. Uh it started for children

younger than 13 years old. And what's

interesting about it is uh they've

stayed with it because 60% of its user

base now is above 13 which is very

interesting. It's the largest

userenerated

uh um content provider out there.

And what is fascinating about it is I

know one of my friend's daughter has

started her own dress shop on Roblox and

what she doesn't understand is that

she's she's learning about business but

she's also learning how to code

especially in this new vibe coding

world. So I think it's going to be a

very important uh company going forward.

The the interesting thing about

gaming and technology transitions is

that it is the only entertainment medium

medium that has not fallen apart with

technology transitions.

Um it has actually grown because those

who love their games from 25 years ago

still play them. It's grown with each

technology revolution. So, uh, and user

generated content in gaming is,

um, the next big thing. A business is

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I will speak to you then.

If you had $1,000 to invest Mhm. and you

had to invest it somewhere, where would

you be investing it?

Well, and how would you be like the

general philosophy towards wealth

creation at such a stage? If you had

$1,000, how would you be thinking about

creating wealth for yourself? A couple

of things. averaging into

um either an ETF. What's an ETF? ETF,

exchangeraded fund. So, it treats a

group of stocks like one stock. Mhm. So,

ARK

is it's nearly it's 35 36 stocks, but

you can buy them by purchasing ARK. And

you can do that on your mobile phone by

download. You can do it on your mobile

phone. A bunch of different apps allow

you to just buy that one ETF, which

means you own 35 stocks. Yes. And and

your team are basically choosing what

those 35 stocks are. Yes. Based on your

research, right? and ARK are our highest

conviction stocks. Uh, and they they

they offer an exposure to all of the

innovation platforms that we've talked

about. Whereas ARKI here in Europe is

focused primarily on artificial

intelligence and robotics because we

think that convergence is going to be

pretty explosive. what you don't get

there uh and you do get in

ARK we also have in another very focused

fund ARKG which is really healthc care

applications of AI um and and other

health care other healthcare names that

we think uh are going to be pretty

transformative in the new world as

regulators really understand how

important AI is going to become to

discovery uh research trials development

uh to diagnostic tests and to curing

disease. Another question popped up

which is about Ethereum and these other

cryptocurrencies. Do you invest in any

of these these others? Yes, we have uh

we have well in our public funds we've

put them I I don't think we can own them

here in the UK yet, but in the in the US

uh we have them in um some of our funds,

both of them. They're key to the

financial services revolution. So, uh to

get people to understand and feel

comfortable with that, uh we don't call

it the crypto revolution. It's the

digital assets revolution. And it's

simply the internet, the financial

internet. Okay. So that so we do we do

and do you believe are you more bullish

on the price potential of Bitcoin than

Ethereum? Yes, we think Bitcoin is the

biggest idea. It serves the three three

revolutions. Global monetary system,

they do not. Um new asset class, they

are part of a new asset class, but

Bitcoin is going to be the biggest. and

new technology. It's the most secure uh

blockchain technology out there. What

about all these other Salana and all

these other So, Ether and Salana. So,

the big three are the are those are the

the big three. Um and we think they'll

all be successful, all three of them.

Bitcoin the most. We're very interested

in stable coins, but that's just like

cash. Uh and you know, there are

millions of crypto assets out there. We

think most of them die. Is there any way

to invest in stable coins? Like how do

you invest them in? So indirectly right

now it is through Coinbase. They have a

deal with Circle. Um any any revenue

that Circle generates it's it's stable

coin is USDC.

Yeah. Any revenue they split 50/50 uh in

the US. uh circle itself has announced

that it is going public and so we're

looking forward to that and what's

what's the the sort of psychology or

mentality one has to adopt to be a good

investor depends what you've bought if

you buy a strategy like ours which would

be in the aggressive growth

strategy put it in you know averaging in

over time just like with Bitcoin as I

mentioned earlier uh averaging in over

time what does averaging in Averaging in

means, you know, buy a little every

month, maybe every

payday. I think one of my daughters was

buying Bitcoin every week, but not a

Bitcoin. She couldn't do that. A

Satoshi, you know, so and close your

eyes. Like you're this is a long-term

investment. If we're right, uh,

according to our analysis, now you this

is our research, our analysis. No

promises. We can't do that. But

according to our research, the

technologies around which we have

centered our research

uh and which have focused our

investments, they we believe will go up

more than tenfold in the next five to 10

years. And that's how much explosive

growth we have ahead of us as these

technologies converge and create

incredible opportunities for investors.

And you know I'm hearing a lot of invest

a lot of people um as they get into

investing of course they have their day

jobs but once they have acred enough you

know they're making choices about

dialing down their day jobs and spending

more time investing. You asked what are

some of the jobs of the future going to

be. I think individual investors are

going to be providing for themselves if

they are investing on the right side of

change. So if you're right, that means

that by investing your fund, I would

make a,000% return roughly. Yes. No

promises. But this is all based on

research and you can find it in our big

ideas. Uh big ideas 2025 is on our

website

arc-invest.com. Uh, and you can find a

lot more of information about our funds

on arc-funds

uh.com. And I should probably say this

is not in investing advice. It is not.

And and I want to do your own research.

Do your own research. You can lose all

of your money. Yes, you can lose all of

it if you decide to do any of these

things. But that's why we put Arc Dash

Invest separate from the fund site

because that's just research. learn

learn what you're investing in or learn

why we've invested

uh the the way we have you know that's

that's what we do all day long is we try

and help well first of all we're doing

the research we are making the

investments but I think one of the most

important things we do is communicate

what we're doing and why we're doing it

what do you think of Trump tariffs

everything that's going on in America at

the moment, what's, you know, for the

average person, should they be

concerned? Are you bullish? You think

Trump's got it right? If you look at

what happened to the equity market when

Trump was elected, the stock market,

yes, the stock market, it went crazy to

the upside, as did our strategy.

And why the promise

was deregulation and that I think is

underestimated uh how important it is

because we're strangling in regulation.

It's just this is not our DNA. We we got

to get out from under this. Lower

taxes, lower interest rates is what he

wants, of course. Um and lower tariffs.

What he didn't tell us was exactly how

he was going to go about that

process. And it has it has felt

chaotic. And I've had to go out and

explain what's going on. Try to explain

what's going

on. And I I have to tell you, it scared

me silly to see what was going on

because I knew that

businesses were paralyzed and that we

could have a mess on our hands. And I

certainly communicated through my

channels. Art communicated through his

channels. In fact, I think in one

publication he said, "I have never been

more scared in my career." And we were

trying to really get into Trump's head

and and I know President Trump listens

to art, but he also listens to a lot of

other people, one of whom was Peter

Navaro, who seemed to have a hold on

Trumpet when it came to tariffs. And yet

when I saw Treasury Secretary Bessant

really push aside Navaro and that could

only happen with Trump, I knew we were

going to be okay. I knew we were going

to be okay because throughout all of

this chaos, I think what he is trying to

do is not only get tariffs on the US

down throughout the

world, but maybe more important, get

non-tariff trade barriers down. Like for

example, I didn't even know the UK would

not accept our beef or ethanol.

Well, now you're accepting our beef and

ethanol. I I don't know if I don't know

if people in the supermarkets will buy

it, but uh anyway, this one, but other

countries much many many more non-tariff

trade barriers. And so he is just trying

to bust that up, you know, make it more

visible. You know, for example, Canada,

I think they charged a 250% tariff on

our milk.

And one of President Trump's promises

was to take care of the farmers. Okay,

that's why you see the rhetoric around

Canada. Now, do I agree with his

style? I would never do it that way. I'd

never do it that way. I And it was

unfathomable, you know, for me because

he is sensitive to business and he must

have known that everything was going to

stop. And uh but he also knows that he

has to sound crazy for other people to

take him seriously. And he has and

people have to believe he will do crazy

things in order for people to take him

seriously. And he does do crazy things.

So do you think it's going to work out?

I do. You do? And I think the stock

market is beginning to smell it. If I if

I just had to invest in one stock right

now, what stock would you recommend I

invested in?

Okay. Well, I have to give you our

portfolio pick. So, it would be Tesla.

It would be Tesla if I if I had to give

you one stock. Okay. Interesting.

Because think about it. It is it is a

convergence among three of our major

platforms. So, robot robots, energy

storage, AI, and it's not stopping with

robo taxis. There's a story beyond that

with humanoid robots. and our $2,600

number has nothing for humanoid robots.

We just thought it'd be an investment

period and you know the re but I think

he's going to start generating not only

productivity gains internally but

revenues from humanoid robots. What are

you concerned

about in terms of the way that the world

is going and everything that's

happening? What are the things that keep

you up at night? I've got many a

concern. So, I've got many unanswered

questions and worries about how things

might play out, but keen to hear yours.

I am such an optimist. I really do have

to dig down deeply. If you had asked me

this a few weeks ago, I would have said,

you know, this tariff situation is going

to blow the global economy up if we're

if we're not careful. So, I'm much more

settled about that right now. I'd have

to say I am

concerned that there are going to be

people caught out

um by these new technologies and for

whatever reason not willing to adapt

because there are going to be huge

opportunities if they do. And so one of

the reasons we give away our research,

you know, I'm very honored to do a

podcast like this is to get that word

out. There is so much information

available. You can just go to our site

and listen to our podcasts and if

anything inspires you. Go for it because

it's going the opportunities are going

to be enormous. When you say you're

concerned people might get caught out

caught out in you know disrupted

industries. I mean we think the whole

transportation industry is going to be

disrupted. Um we think retail as we know

it's going to be disrupted as we retail

is in like shops and stuff and yes

although if they adapt with more social

personal experiences I think that

anything physical you'll want to have a

social dynamic associated with it but in

terms of what I think is going to happen

to retail is we're going to have our

personal shopping assistants and they're

going to they're going to anticipate ate

what we want, which I can't wait. I hate

shopping. Uh, anticipate what we want.

Uh, or basically flag something that

they know we would like if we knew it

were available. And they'll be

disintermediating all of the traditional

sources because they can go anywhere in

the world. Um, so just think about

almost every sector is going to be

disrupted. Healthc care is going to be

disrupted enormously, I think, for the

better. for the better. But those who

are wedded to doing things the old way

are probably going to be disrupted, you

know.

Yeah, that is my concern as well and and

just how we handle that as a society.

But I think if we can help people

understand that they have a lot of

control over this if they're willing to

learn and dream and use their

imaginations. Not everybody is though as

you know but they have to do it for

their children at least right if we took

the general population in London and

said 100 people how many of you

understand what AI is or how many of you

use chat GBT we'd have a certain

percentage maybe I don't know 50% or

more if I went to the countryside yes

and I stopped a lovely person shopping

in their local village and said do use

chat GBT it'd probably be significantly

lower percentage they they would care

about that? What is that? Whatever. Um I

I wonder about the inequality of

like education but just initiative and

how those that really do have a

proclivity to lean in and to experiment

and to mess around and to learn because

maybe there's an incentive because they

work in a city and their employees

asking them to will or be off to the

races with this disruptive technology.

And there's just like a lot of the rest

of society of middle America and the

countryides and those types of people

who are just not even going to see it

coming. But that's why we're out there.

And the the important word that you used

was initiative because I really think

you know when people hear the word

inequality

uh they like to blame something, right?

There will be no reason for this. I'm

sure someone's going to come back at me

for saying that, but of course there are

people who who we have to help along the

way. No question about it. But for those

who are healthy and uh are listening to

this podcast and are saying uh you know

I don't I don't know exactly what she's

talking about but I'm going to start

reading up on some of these new ways of

doing things and make sure to at least

understand it. I think within that kind

of initiative they'll find it. They just

will find it. There's going to be so

much opportunity. It's going to be so

exciting and I think again creativity

and you know especially young people

using their imaginations you know

they're they're not held back by any

preconceived notion. So I ask all the

questions I ask because I'm trying to

like solve little question marks I have

in my head about the future and it's

really difficult at this time to see

around the corner because so much is

changing so quickly and there's all of

these converging technologies as you

describe like robotics and AI and then

when I put robotics and AI together I go

do you know what I mean? Because there's

like I keep coming back to this question

of like what am I going to do and not in

you know what's good about that? You

know what's really good about

that? That will motivate you. It does.

Of course it does. It's great. It

motivates me to ask people like you the

questions 17 times in a row to try and

find the answer. But it's a real point

cuz I run businesses. We have at our

headquarters which is around the corner.

It's about 25,000 foot office. we have,

you know, hundreds of people in that

building and I'm thinking about the

roles that we're hiring for and I'm

we're now looking at them through the

lens of agentic AI, so AI agents and and

then if I overlay that with robotics and

AI and you know I'm what roles would we

need to hire in the future because

theoretically like can you name a single

role in a media company that would when

I'm talking about in the robotics era

that would really need to be done by a

human I guess other And one could say

humanto human sales will still have some

kind of element of human touch to them.

You know though I mean we've learned a

lot from the ancient game of go. Yeah.

So you've heard about Alph Go which was

uh Alphabet Google um basically devising

a program to compete against the Go

champions. Go is much more complicated

than chess. Yeah. It's like a game, a

board game basically, right? So I think

the the champion of the world at the

time was a South Korean and he was sure

he was going to beat this m machine.

Well, the machine bit beat him and he

was

crestfallen.

And then he got

his to use New York word back and he

said, "Wait a minute. I'm going to start

playing against

machines." And so now he's playing

against machines. His game is so much

better that when he competes against

humans, and those competitions are the

more important ones, right? when he

competes against other human beings, the

machine has kept him at his champion.

And of course, everyone's using the So,

we're all we're going to artificial

intelligence. But he still can't beat a

machine, can he? He still can't beat the

best machine in the world. No, he can't.

And but I mean, he can occasionally, but

but people don't want to go see machines

competing against machines. I get that

in because human humans like human error

and they like to be able to relate and

to aspire. But as it relates to the

world of work, the incentive is

productivity. And my my humanoid robot

isn't going to get sick and it's going

to have a PhD in everything. So I don't

want to see a human failing at their

desk. I want the humanoid robot. Right.

Right. Right. Right. Right. But then you

your your robot and your AI is really

focused on the past. Right? That's what

it's ingested. It can make predictions

though based on that pass pattern

recognition, which is how my brain

works, right? Like a neural network.

But that's why we chose the word

disruptive. Disruptive means the

traditional world order and patterns

therefore that you know the the robots

and others will recognize is going to

change. Right. I'm sorry. What does that

mean? as so what when we're doing our

research we have a white sheet of paper

there's no history for this right and so

we're doing a lot of original research

so AI machines might use our research as

there because we put it out there but

how does the AI think differently to to

a human though in terms of is I thought

the human brain was building you know

predicting essentially something based

on lots of information and AI is

basically doing the same thing with

neural networks It's making a prediction

based on lots of new information and

therefore if we get to AGI it can create

new information. Yes. And and and it

will but I mean AGI Elon will say it's

two years away and it does seem you know

we're able to generate PhDs and rocket

scientists now in the AI world. So he's

probably right. But I also think about

this as giving us super intelligence.

So, could chat GBT do what we've done?

Maybe. I don't know. Actually, it's a

very interesting exercise. I'm going to

ask our team to do that before I put it

out. uh to do to do a model, a SpaceX

model, financial model, income

statement, balance sheet, cash flow

statement between now and 2050 when we

have in 20 in the 2040s Elon, if not

sooner, to colonize Mars. Uh I I'll see

what kind of model it comes back with in

terms of how much in terms of how

correct it is and what it uses to get

there.

Okay, I'll do that now. SpaceX,

a financial

model or income statement. Okay. Income

statement. That's the really smart

model. Let's do 3.0. Make a space.

You're an investor in SpaceX. Yes. In

the private fund. Yes. So am I. Make a

SpaceX uh income

statement. income statement based on uh

Elon's predictions. Yes. Elon's

predictions. Yeah. This will be very

interesting now until 2050. Mhm. Okay.

I'll put that on the screen so everybody

can watch. And this is essentially going

to look at everything he said about

going to Mars and colonizing Mars and

then tell you how valuable that

company's going to be essentially. Yes.

I'm not sure if you asked the question

that way. Did you Did you say I just

said make a SpaceX income statement

based on Elon's predictions from now

until 2050 and then I can ask it what

the market cap would be. I wonder how

long it's going to think. It's thinking

for a while. Yeah, it's going to think a

long time, I have a feeling. And then

it's going to take you through. And I

think uh you know what was interesting?

Deep Seek

uh the breakthrough it had on the

reasoning side was it kept asking

questions so it could get to the right

answer faster. Mhm. I think they're all

adopting it now because because Deep

Seek's open source. Yeah. And they

didn't need to spend much as much money

on the training side because they That's

what they say. They said $6 million

trained on a high-end workstation. And

that that of course caused a trillion

dollars worth of damage in the US market

with Nvidia, one of the biggest uh

casualties because people said, "Well,

wait a minute. We're doing these data

centers. You mean we don't need all

those big data center servers to to do

this work? We could do a high-end

workstation for $6 million. The answer

is the pre-training for that model was

done on a 50,000 GPU cluster that the

hedge fund had. And the last step of the

large language model was the $6 million

step.

Okay, it's made its mind up now. Oh, so

it says Starlink revenue in 2050 would

be 250 billion. Mhm. It says launch and

Starship revenue would be 120 billion.

So the total revenue would be 370

billion. Cost of goods sold would be 172

billion. Gross profit therefore would be

200 billion. Operating expense is 37

billion. Operating income would be 161

billion. after tax. So the net income

would be 128 billion. All

right. And I have to to be honest I

haven't seen the last stage of this

model. We haven't that would be very

interesting. I'd love to get a a copy of

that. If you could send it to me 100%

I'll email it to you straight after. You

know when I asked Chat GBT earlier I

said who is the number one woman in the

world in investing? It repeatedly said

your name. So that's a pretty remarkable

thing to have accomplished, especially

in a male-dominated industry where there

isn't many women that managed to rise to

the top of that

industry. So what what is it about you

in hindsight? You know, it's difficult

to be objective about oneself, but what

is it about you that meant that you were

successful in a male-dominated industry,

in an industry that's incredibly

difficult to be successful in? My advice

to all young people getting into their

first job especially, but even later

jobs is my mission when I started was to

make my boss look brilliant. Now, why do

I why do I say that? It's much more

applicable today and possible today than

it was back when there were no computers

and no cell phones, which is when I

started, right? But what did I do? My

boss wanted to communicate. He was an

economist. Wanted to communicate in

charts that, you know, he couldn't find.

So, I figured out a way. I went to our

time sharing system. That's all you

could do back then. Time sharing is an

ancient mainframe technology. And I

figured out a way to make these charts

and delight him.

And and and I loved doing it. And I

loved learning. I loved learning about

technology. I learned tech and about

economics uh through him. So that was

the first thing. And then why is it

important to make your boss look good?

Well, I think because if you do make him

look good, um first of all, you should

you owe him a debt of of gratitude if he

turns around and gives you more grow

growth opportunities. So, but if he or

she doesn't, then you know it's time to

go to the next place where you make that

next boss look brilliant and maybe you

have the growth trajectory. I had bosses

who they they love the fact that I loved

what I was doing that I had such high

conviction in what I was doing and I and

I'm going to give Art Laugher a lot of

credit for that. When I walked in to the

financial

world, I knew more about economics than

most of the people in the room. And that

was a great source of confidence. A

great source of confidence. And when I

was leaving that firm, uh, someone said

my my boss at the time said, I was

moving from LA to New York. My my boss

said, "You've only been doing this for

three years. You're not ready to become

their economist." And um and I just

thought I was ready. And more important,

the company to which I was going thought

I was ready. And as I was leaving um

both he and and others said, "Remember,

you know more about economics than

anyone else in the room. You'll so take

that with you." And I did. And I think

that sense of confidence in

understanding the way the world works

from a macroeconomic uh point of view

was critically important. Now when I got

to New York, I could not even speak Art

Laugher's name because the LER curve

says if you cut tax rates that are too

high, you will get more revenue. And

what had happened is Ronald Reagan had

cut tax rates, but Paul Vulkar at the

Fed was trying to starve the economy of

inflation. So we were in backto-back

recessions and no, the government wasn't

getting more revenue. So Art Laugher

was, you know, on I I couldn't say

anything, but you know, it was fine. I I

knew he was going to be right and we

were right. That was the story of the

80s and 90s. And that's why uh Jennison

Associates and the chief investment

officer there uh Sig Sagalis um gave me

an opportunity to get into equity

research. I wanted to grow. I loved the

stock market and he loved my conviction

and so he started me on cyclical

companies which of course I would know a

lot about. But Jennison was primarily a

techoriented firm and of course knowing

that I wanted to delight the boss. I

wanted to get into the technologies and

I made it my business to know as much

about them and and I was the only one

willing to uh research stocks outside

the US. Think about that now.

Art

Lather Arthur Ler. Yes. He wrote this

letter. Oh, he did. He wrote this letter

describing you. Oh, to you? To me? Oh.

He said, "There was this young lady

named Kathy Duddy, later Kathy Wood,

whose face was the map of Ireland, and

whose ambition was over the moon. I was

a tough teacher and grader, and Cathy's

first steps were shaky, but in short

order, she rose to the occasion and aced

the course. impressed as I was and

believe me I was very impressed. I

helped Kathy land her first job at

Capital Group in LA and from that point

in time it was game on. I followed her

career closely after Capital Group then

on to Tillo and her final job as an

employee at Alliance Alliance Bernstein.

As you may imagine, she was the star

investor at each stage. And in 2014,

Kathy took a giant entrepreneurial leap

in the founding and funding of Arc

Invest. And the letter goes on to say,

"She's a mega success and God bless her.

She never has forgotten her now aged

professor."

Well, that was very nice of him. Um

uh so he he has been so important to my

career. Now I'm going to get a little

weepy, but um I gave him 1% of my

company when I started it. And uh so he

deserved it. He deserved it because he

gave him a big big break. He believed in

me first. Why does that make you

emotional?

I don't know. We have we've gone through

our life together and what's so

interesting now is

um so interesting and and fun

is Bitcoin has

rejuvenated art. He's 85 years old or

84 and I'm seeing his excitement and he

wants to spread the word around the

world and now we're going into stable

coins together

and he just started an account on X. He

has a flip phone. He doesn't do email

and yet he has just started an account

on X. And so we now have this technology

relationship because he wasn't going to

technology but he knows he's seen like

Arc alto together we have 3.3 million

followers and he's seen the reach that X

has and he's also I think the other

thing and I'm I'm haven't answered your

question. It's just very nice of him to

do that you know I see it's a typed one

page and very sweet. We have a closing

tradition on this podcast where the last

guest leaves a question for the next

guest not knowing who they're leaving it

for. And the question left for you is

great question for you. What is the

craziest

idea you ever had that turned out to be

right?

Well, there are just a a few one thing

that it's it's not that crazy, but it

just gives you a sense of how not

obvious in the early days of

ARC. I remember saying I remember

saying, "Well, you know, autonomous

vehicles are robots."

And I was in a research meeting and

everybody said, "No, they're not." And

of course they are. You know, it's a

crazy idea, but and there was something

I mean there some things I'll say and

the reason that's important from our

point of view is this convergence idea,

robotics, AI, energy storage. It's wait

a minute, this is a very big idea. So it

seemed it seems like no. It's like I

think it is. And and so it was like we

were we were, you know, feeling our way

in the dark because that was 2014 and

nobody was really talking about them.

And there's something like that very

recently. Oh, we were talking. It's not

a crazy idea. It's just we're trying to

solve problems. Um

someone as we were going on and on at

our brainstorm on Friday about humanoid

robots, uh someone he he's our um what

do we call him? What do you call

kermagin? Uh, no. Good way. In a good

way. I don't even know what kmagin

means. Kromagin means kind of contrarian

or kermagin like yeah yeah yeah that's

not going to work you know. Um he

humanoid robots. He said he said I don't

think that's going to be a thing. He

said, "We really need robots that are

going to be able to carry a lot more in

terms of weight than those things will

on those stilts." And in my mind, kind

of flashed

um transformer robots, they'd have legs

and all of that. You'd be able to fold

them up so they look like a tamp tank.

Mhm. And so that's what I said on uh I

know this doesn't sound so crazy to you,

but uh I don't I just imagining the

future going to Disneyland when I'm 11

years old. We had just come over uh from

Ireland and seeing someone holding a

phone on the carousel for progress and

you know saying I'm going to have one of

those. Um, it sounded crazy at the time

and I felt a little crazy but always.

So, you think we're going to have

transformer robots? Yeah. So, the robot

that cleans my house can transform and

maybe become and everybody laughed at me

but I think that's going to happen.

Another one was and this was on these

are just little ideas in terms of how

things hit my brain but uh someone was

talking about boring which is another

one of Elon's companies the underground

transportation thinks tunnels and stuff.

Yeah, I forget what someone said in a

post on

X, but I my answer was Mars obviously.

And people were laughing at that. And

then as they were talking about they're

saying, of course they're going to put

that transportation system underground.

We learned why you shouldn't have it on

top of the ground from Earth. So just a

little things look catch me in a funny

way. It's not the craziest. They're just

like, "Oh, maybe that is the way things

are going to work." I wonder if if Elon

dies before we get to Mars, or if he

just dies in the next 10 years from

anything, from any cause, how much of an

impact that will have on our rate of

progress generally with space and

electric vehicles and humanoid robots

could be quite profound. He is getting

us so far along that, you know, there's

just going to be a runway he's created

for years and years. Think about it.

Mars 2040 50 you know

Kathy thank you thank you for doing what

you do and um that's a a sort of

multifaceted point of gratitude because

you do so much um you do so much in

educating all of us in terms of

innovation investing and what the future

looks like but also from your fund's

perspective and your company's

perspective you do so much in open

sourcing and putting the research and

the work that you guys do out into the

world when you don't necessarily have to

but as I've heard you say it's a great

benefit both to the world but also you

do it because it also brings people to

your fund right and um it certainly did

for me that's how I came across you many

many years ago when I had was reading

some research with my brother um around

investing in the future and innovation

and understanding your thesis around all

of those things but also from the

education side you're distilling this

complex research into simple um language

and information that the next generation

can understand so that this moment of

transition doesn't catch them off guard

and that's an incredible thing but I but

I have to say as well you're such an

inspiration for the very fact that you

have achieved what you've achieved in

your life. It's it's exceed it's

extremely rare for someone and I don't

always like to talk about gender or race

or the those kinds of things but it's a

point of it's a particular point a

pertinent point in this case because you

have succeeded in a very maledominated

industry and I think just your presence

your existence alone is going to inspire

lots of women um and men people like me

um to pursue finance and investing as a

career. So thank you so much for doing

what you do and thank you for being who

you are. It's incredibly important and

you've demystified so many things for me

over the years even though we've never

met. Um, but watching your videos and

reading the research that you guys put

out. So, I'm going to link all of that

below and linked your websites and your

funds and all those things so people can

learn more. But yeah, thank you. Thank

you, Stephen. Thank you for doing what

you do and and it's been an honor and a

privilege and I know you have an

incredible audience. So, you've built a

fantastic business here, and I have a

feeling uh that this new world that that

you're fearing is going to be very good

to you. I hope so. Yes. Thank you.

The hardest conversations are often the

ones we avoid. But what if you had the

right question to start them with? Every

single guest on the diary of a co has

left behind a question in this diary.

And it's a question designed to

challenge, to connect, and to go deeper

with the next guest. And these are all

the questions that I have here in my

hand. On one side, you've got the

question that was asked, the name of the

person who wrote it. And on the other

side, if you scan that, you can watch

the person who came after who answered

it. 51 questions split across three

different levels. The warm-up level, the

open up level, and the deep level. So,

you decide how deep the conversation

goes. And people play these conversation

cards in boardrooms at work, in

bedrooms, alone at night, and on first

dates and everywhere in between. I'll

put a link to the conversation cards in

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yours at the

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[Music]

Detailed Summary

In this episode of The Diary of a CEO, Steven Bartlett interviews Cathie Wood, the CEO of ARK Invest, about future investment opportunities. Wood shares her insights on disruptive innovation, focusing on robotics, energy storage, artificial intelligence, blockchain technology, and multiomic sequencing. She expresses concerns about companies like Apple potentially being disrupted by AI, while highlighting Tesla as the largest AI project on Earth. Wood predicts significant growth in autonomous taxi networks and the transformative impact of AI on healthcare. She also discusses investment strategies, key stock picks like Tesla and CRISPR, and the potential of Bitcoin as a new asset class. The conversation also covers the rise of humanoid robots, the emergence of vibe coding, and the importance of continuous learning and adaptation in a rapidly changing world. She advises young people to focus on making their bosses look brilliant and to stay ahead of technological advancements. She touches on concerns about potential disruptions and the importance of initiative in navigating the future.