Scooter Braun: When Everything Broke, It Fixed Me

There's parts of your life where there's

these big question marks that I'm hoping

you can answer for me. Okay. But I want

the full truth. Now I'm nervous. Scooter

Braun is the man behind some of the

biggest stars in the music industry. And

he built one of the most disruptive

entertainment empires on the planet.

I've never really said this out loud

until right now. At this age, I feel a

lot of guilt because I worked with so

many young artists and we were all kids

moving so fast and we all wanted to

succeed so bad. And it wasn't until I

was 40 years old doing some intense

therapy that I realized I was so driven

by the fear that I wouldn't be enough.

So, let's go back. As a kid growing up,

I wanted to prove that I could be more

than the privilege I was born with. And

I created this character, Scooter,

because I didn't think Scott could

achieve these things. That mask made me

absolutely relentless faking it till I

make it. Like, I had no right convincing

Justin and his mom to be on the first

plane they had ever been on and meet me.

So, what were they betting on? My

ignorance. But it was also realizing

that so much of insecurity drives us and

makes us great. Like now that I'm here,

I can't fail because then everyone will

see that I shouldn't be here. So let's

go for it. And then had such extreme

success. The whole world thought I was

crushing it. But I had built this mask

so big. I didn't realize how far away

I'd gotten from the sky. So here I am

the top of my game. I wanted to kill

myself. I went to a very dark place and

I broke down crying because I spent so

much time trying to impress people who

didn't love me instead of realizing how

many people already

did. And I was so desperate to do the

thing I had never done before. What was

that? This has always blown my mind a

little bit. 53% of you that listen to

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what we do. Thank you so much.

Scooter, when I look at your life and I

look at the things you've

achieved, so much of it makes sense. But

then there's this these other parts of

your life where there's these big

question marks that I'm hoping you can

answer for me. And maybe the earliest

question mark that remains in my head is

what it is that drives you? Because from

an exceedingly young age, there was this

dog in you. There was something for me

when I was going through the research.

looked like a chip on your shoulder or

something to prove to someone. And so

that's really where I wanted to start. I

want to understand your earliest context

so I can understand the cauldron that

scooter was shaped in and and the way

that that made the boy turned to a man.

Big question, but that's the um the

starter right burning question in my

head. You know, it's funny cuz you

started by asking Scooter, "What drives

you?"

And it took me a long time to figure out

as an adult that it was actually Scott,

my real name, that was the real driver.

And I I really created this guy Scooter

when I was an adult because I didn't

think Scott could achieve these things.

So I almost like created a mask. And it

wasn't until I was 40 years old doing

some intense therapy that I fell in love

with my name again and

realized the answer to your question,

which is part of it was shame.

of

why with my family's

background am I getting all this

privilege? My father's a refugee from

Hungary. My mother her dad died when she

was 11, you know, and her mother

struggled to to raise them with family

help in the Catskill Mountains. My

grandparents were Holocaust survivors.

And here I am, first generation born in

America. And I wanted to prove that I

could be more than the privilege I was

born with. And I so I had that chip on

my shoulder. I wanted to prove my value.

I wanted to prove I was worthy of this.

Who's told you you had to?

No one. I think, you know, as a kid

growing up, I read it that way because,

you know, you're hearing the stories of

the Holocaust and my dad every night

before he put me and my brother to bed

would say, "Hey, boys, you're different.

You're special. I hold you to a higher

standard." every night before we went to

bed. And we started to really believe

him of like we need to hold ourselves to

this higher standard. We need to do

more. The idea of failing, the idea of

looking at my parents and and not

achieving it, that's what drove me. And

and years ago, I was on a podcast

probably 10 years ago. I was doing a

podcast with Complex with this guy,

Noah. I watched it. Do you remember the

baseball analogy? I literally wrote it

down in my notes. Well, I will tell it

again, but I will tell you on your

podcast the difference I hold today.

Okay. They asked me what it takes to be

successful. And I made up this analogy

with baseball. And I said, "Imagine Sai

Young award winner CC Savvathia at the

height of his career is in the middle of

Yankee Stadium and they invite everyone

to come hit a home run and they say you

get as many at bats as you want and

whoever hits the home run wins like the,

you know, billion dollars, million

dollars, whatever it is.

And you can imagine everyone flies in

from all around the world. People are

fulfilling for New York City. The line

is crazy. And I said, the person who's

successful is not only the person who

finally gets up to the plate and swings

and misses, but stays at the plate. And

now people are saying, "Are you kidding

me? There's lines of millions of people

waiting for their turn. And you're going

to stay there. You're going to stay

there and swing again." And they swing

again. And then everyone's booing. And

they swing again. And they literally

keep swinging as everyone is booing them

and booing them and booing them for

hours. They're the most selfish person

in the world. You don't deserve to be

here. Get off that plate. This is not.

And then they finally hit that homer.

And everyone cheers cuz oh my god, they

did it. And I said that years ago. And

it wasn't until recently that I realized

there's one difference in the story. I

never understood who the crowd was. I

always thought the crowd was being able

to shut out the outside noise. I always

thought the crowd was the naysayers and

all the people who in your life who will

tell you you're never going to achieve

anything. And that's part of it. But the

crowd, all those people waiting in line

is actually you. That's what I never

realized till now. That that's the

difference. I always thought when people

asked me what drove you, I thought it

was all the outside noise. I thought it

was the fear of failure, the fear of

letting them down, all these different

things. And it wasn't until recently

when I hit some hardships as an adult

and really had to look inward that I

realized everyone's got the same crowd

and everyone has their own issues and

everyone has their own stuff. And what

actually brings you to success and

self-worth and happiness is actually

understanding how to stand at that plate

and shut out the noise that's here. Not

the millions of people around. The

millions of people are in your head

screaming at you telling you you're not

enough. The deep deep lie from the most

confident people they have it.

So, I'm glad I get to finally publicly

say the difference because I've had it

wrong all these years.

And in that analogy, you talk about how

most people come up to the plate, they

swing once, they leave, they hear the

boo, they leave, they go back to their

sofa or wherever they're coming from,

something or or they swing two, three

times, everyone's telling they're

selfish, and they get, you know, oh my

god, and they're embarrassed and they

leave. Mhm. It takes a lot for someone

to stand there in the middle of the

noise, shut out the noise, and

understand the opportunity was given to

me. I deserve this. I'm going to keep

swinging. Going back to your early

context, Scott. Yeah. Your dad, Irvin.

Yeah. He sounds like quite a tough guy.

I was reading about some of the things

he was saying to you when you were a

kid. And I was like, "Dad, Jesus." Like

when he called you a liar. Yeah. That

day and told you about living with

integrity, etc. My dad grew up tough.

And it was almost like when you're being

raised by two people who live through

what they live through. They were

raising him for a world that took

everything away from them. They were so

loving, but they still raised him that

way. And then he was so loving, but he

still raised us really tough. And I was

the firstborn son, so I'm the oldest of

all our kid, all the kids. So, he was

very tough on me. You're referencing

this time when I was I was probably

14. And he uh he caught me in like a

white

lie. And usually he would punish me. And

his punishments could be severe, but

this time he just said, "Hey, come here.

I want to talk to you." It's not going

to be a punishment this time. I just

want you to know you got the gift for

gab. You could talk your way out of

anything. And in life, I used to tell

you, if you lie, you're not going to be

successful. I want to tell you the

truth. You're so good at it. You might

be successful, but you're going to be a

liar. And I'll know you're a liar, and

you'll know you're a liar. So, do that

with what you want. And I was so beaten

down and ashamed because it wasn't like

raining down fists on me. It was just

like the guy I admired so much called me

a liar. And I walked away. I was messed

up. And I went back to him and I said,

"Dad, I want you to know, I'm not going

to lie. I'm going to be a man of

integrity. I'm Yeah, I could do that,

but I understand this opportunity what

you're saying." And he just looked at

me. He said, "Okay, good." And he walked

away. And it was one of the best lessons

ever, you know,

cuz he was right. Like you you can win

certain ways, but you're going to know

how do you how do you want to win? and

you want to do it the right way and um

and that that tough love I'm

appreciative of it. You go to college. I

went to college. You went to college? Um

you started a business at college doing

events. Yeah. Well, I I started selling

fake IDs. That's what I started first.

Yeah. Yeah. I sold fake IDs cuz my

friend sold fake IDs and I thought he

had a bad business plan. So, I was like,

I'll market them, you make them. Um and

and quickly uh he broke my golden rule

of not keeping in touch with people. we

sold to. So, I stopped immediately cuz I

didn't want to get caught. And um I

walked by a nightclub and said, "How

much would you give me if I brought

people here the next week?" And that was

the beginning of my Atlanta party

promotion days. Why did that succeed?

What is it about you as you look back in

hindsight, your skill set, your ability

that made your party promotion days so

successful, which eventually sort of

parlayed into music? But a combination

of things. I think one, uh I wasn't a

threat to the freshman girls. I had a

high school sweetheart at the time. I

was very committed to her. I was a

decently cute kid and I could dance.

Okay. So, I was a good person to go out

with and have fun. So, uh that was one

thing. Number two, I was playing sports.

So, I had a lot of friends in different,

you know, teams and different arenas.

And three, I was in the right place at

the right time. You know, I uh that

first party I threw was successful. And

at that first party, I was approached by

a guy named Jason Weaver. He's an actor

and he was in this old Michael Jackson

movie I used to watch as a kid where he

played young Michael. And he came in and

he said, "This is crazy." Cuz Atlanta at

that time was very segregated in the

club scene. So it was like if you were

black, you went to a party that, you

know, a club that played hip-hop and if

you were white, you went to a club they

played techno. But I didn't grow up in

the South and I wanted to listen to

hip-hop and rock and roll. And we played

that. And when Jason came in, he was so

fascinated to see a mixed crowd

listening to hip-hop that he was like,

"You want to see how the other half

lives?" And Jason brought me to a club

called Velvet Room on Tuesday nights in

Atlanta, Georgia. It was ran by a guy

named Alex Giddawan. Alex was so

fascinated to see me in the line. He

said, "You know, let this kid in here."

And Alex taught me how to promote. He

taught me what the value of the door

actually was, what I should be getting

from the bar. And I would start moving

my parties. And I would spend all my

money that I made on Thursday nights at

the college party on Alex's Tuesday

night meeting people, meeting rappers,

meeting singers, meeting different

people, faking it till I make it and

getting people to come back and forth

between my parties. And that's how I

started. That's how I met Germaine.

That's how I met Luda. That's we all

kind of came up together.

Relationships. Why did he give you a

foot up? So many people are early in

their careers and they're having these

chance encounters, but those those

aren't converting into a relationship.

And when I look at your life, there's

people you meet along the way who end up

being really, really pivotal. And it

appears to me as an objective observer

that you have an ability to form good

relationships, loyal, lasting

relationships with

people. One, I think it's important to

pay people respect. You know, I came

from a household where you respect your

elders. And when I was coming up, I was

19. So I was very respectful to the

people that giving me an opportunity.

And I never forgot who helped me along

the way. I think the other thing that

was a big part of my philosophy was let

your work be the reason they want to

meet you. I didn't want to be that kid

who was going, "Hey, give me an

opportunity." And by the way, sometimes

that works, but I wanted them to see

what I was doing and then say, "Come

over here." I didn't approach Germaine

Dri to work at So Deaf. Germaine heard

about me in my parties and he met me and

he said, "You have more potential than

parties. Why don't you come work for

me?" I didn't approach, you know,

Ludicrous who was coming up as a rapper

and say, "Let me do that." I didn't a

lot of people in my life. I I never

really approached them. And then even as

my life changed and I got older, I made

a lot of relationships and I have a lot

of relationships now that I've never

done business with. And people go,

"Well, you have that. Why don't you?"

And it was because I never wanted anyone

to

feel probably my insecurities. I never

wanted anyone to feel like I needed

them. I never wanted to feel like a

user. It was like my own insecurities of

how they might see me. Mhm. But I think

on top of that, I

just it was that same old thing of never

wanting to be in a position where you're

begging somebody for something. I called

Jermaine and we spoke to him and I

listened to the recording again just

before you arrived. But what Jermaine

said in that voice recording is also

pretty similar to what your dad said,

which is they both saw something in you.

You're this young kid who doesn't have

an extensive track record of decades of

work, but they're all betting on you in

some way. As you look back on your life,

what were they betting on? Cuz they all

seem pretty sure that you had something.

My ignorance. Ignorance. I think I think

uh I No one told me I shouldn't be

there.

And he offered you a job for working at

his company which meant you had to drop

out of college. I didn't have to drop

out of college. I did because um I went

to work for Germaine and now I'm

traveling all the time. I'm still

throwing parties, you know, we're

gearing up for Usher's album. We're

doing this, we're doing that. I'm

working with the Young Bloodoods,

Anthony Hamilton. Like it's and I'm 19,

20 years old. And my grade point average

went from a 3 point something to a 1

point something. And they brought me in

on academic probation. And they said,

um, you know, what's going on with you?

Is there a drug problem? Are you being

abused? And I said, "No, no, no, no. I'm

an entrepreneur. I'm building this. I

want to build a record label. I'm

working for Jermaine Dupria." You know,

and this guy's looking at me like I'm

insane. And he's, this dean looks at me

at Emery and he says, "Uh, do you know

the story of Robert Woodruff?" And I

said, "You know Robert Woodruff?" He

goes, "Yeah, the founder of Coca-Cola,

the Woodruff Center, the largest

endowment in Emery." and he tells me

this amazing story of this entrepreneur

who created Coca-Cola who is the largest

endowment at our university. And I'm so

hyped. I'm like, "This guy gets me. He

gets me. He's going to help me. I'm

going to be at the school." And just

when my hopes are really high, he looks

at me, he goes, "You know what we're

going to do, right? Cuz we're going to

stop all the nonsense. You're going to

focus on school. You're going to get a

degree because the chance of you being

like Robert Woodruff without an Emory

degree is like one in a billion."

And the moment he said it, that's when I

dropped out of school. What did your

father say? Before you ask me about my

father, I want to ask you a question.

Okay. You made a face and you paused.

Yeah. Because you have your own story of

something happening like this. I just

have a a bias. I just have a real hate

for dream busters. Yet, every great

story we have of success, people tell of

that pivotal moment, whether it be this

dean or Michael Jordan being cut by his

coach, the varsity coach when he was

younger. Yeah. We all talk about the

dream buster as a catalyst to our

success. And you know, in life, I've I

kind of feel like everything even, you

know, it's like I have this tattoo amor

fati, you know, from Marcus Aurelius.

It's the a concept love of one's fate in

Latin. And it's this concept that you

have to love the sorrow as much as you

love the joy. You have to love the pain

as much as you love the success. You

know, it's if it wasn't for that, Dean,

I wouldn't have had that chip on my

shoulder in that moment. I would just

push you on the fact that like you hate

these dream busters, but I am so

grateful for them. I'm I'm grateful for

the dream busters. However, and this is

actually something I was talking to my

friends about in our group chat this

morning. Is it okay in your view to be

driven by haters?

It's so funny because if you're only

driven by haters, no. But I think that

everything plays its role at the time.

Like um Robert Green Mhm. he talks about

this idea of embracing your dark side.

And I think that there's truth in that.

Like you know, if if you continue to

fight something that's naturally inside

of you, you're going to really struggle

with it. If you can accept that's part

of you can use it as fuel and you can

move right through it. So yes, there are

things that drive me. My curiosity is a

big driver for for where I go. My

children now are a big driver for where

I go and how I live my life. The people

I love, the joy that I find, the

introspective voice that now I can go to

when I'm meditating or, you know,

working you on

myself, but doubt from someone who

dislikes me or doubt from a hater. I can

pretend like I'm zen as much as I want.

But if I'm being really honest with

myself sometimes that's the fuel that I

need. So I think if it's if it's solely

one thing it's not healthy. But I think

if you can admit you get fuel and

different influences from different

places and don't try and be ashamed of

the one that doesn't fit in your

narrative of how evolved you are. Yeah.

You know then it's okay.

You established SB Projects I believe

after leaving Germaine when you were 24

25 years old. 24. And I read that you'd

kind of have had this plan to sign three

different types of acts. Yeah. First one

Asher Roth who's a very famous rap.

Yeah. I wanted to sign three types of

acts and Asher fit the mold for one,

Justin for the other, and the other one

I never found. So Asher, for people that

don't know, is a very successful rapper.

Um, what was the mold you were trying to

fit? Eminem was a very big rappers, one

of the biggest rappers of all time. And

I was in college and I'm watching all

like these at the time these frat guys,

but they loved hip-hop. And I don't

think they had anyone who spoke to their

life. So I wanted a kid who could speak

to college life who had the skills to be

credible within the world of hip-hop.

Why did you think you could find talent?

What did you believe? Ignorance.

Ignorance. Okay. I'm telling you, every

aspect of my life, if we talked about

every little thing that I've been in,

you said earlier, I've been in all these

different things and probably your

listeners have no idea what the hell I

am. So, they're like, what is he talking

about? But every time I put myself in

that next

arena, it's this why not me. I had no

right contacting Asher on MySpace. I

mean, at that point, I could say, okay,

I came from so deaf. I was the youngest

vice president music because of Germaine

when I was at SOFE. I was 20 years old.

So, I had the right, you know, some

credibility other people didn't have. I

definitely could do that. But to tell

him to drop out of college and move down

to Atlanta, Georgia for be the first

artist on my record label to, you know,

find Justin in Canada and convince his

mom and him to be on the first plane

they had ever been on to come down to

Atlanta and meet me. I mean, it it was I

was 25 years old, 24 years old. Like,

these are I was insane. Like, you know,

so interesting. When we talk about

belief, we we ask if you know Scooter,

did you have belief? But in your case,

you had the lack of limiting beliefs,

which shows up the same as having there

was just like nothing. It wasn't even

because I was so driven by also the fear

that I wouldn't be enough. That back

then I would have lied. I would have

said, "Oh, I had such a deep belief in

my in my conviction that I could do

it." It was partially that, but it was

also, "Why not me? and no one told me I

can't be here. And also now that I'm

here, I can't fail because then everyone

will see that I shouldn't be here. And

so it was this this fear, excitement,

fear, excitement, conviction. That's why

I always tell people when I meet them as

young people, I'm like, you don't have

kids. You can starve a little bit. Your

parents want you to go the easiest route

because they don't want to see you

suffer, but now is the time when you

should be suffering. If you want to go

for it, now's the time when you don't

have anyone to support where you can

really really go for it because later on

in life, you got to think about other

people. And back then, 19 years old to

24, I'm let's go for it.

And the second artist that you signed,

it's called Justin Bieber. Who's Justin

Bieber? Justin Bieber. You were 26 years

old when you came across Justin. 25. 25.

And he was 12. 13. 13. Damn.

You discovered Justin by watching a a

Soick video by Yeah. I saw a bunch of

videos from his church his mom had

posted and the one that moved me the

most was so sick by

[Music]

Neo right

[Music]

now. And I know it makes no

sense cuz you walked out the door. It's

the only way I hear your voice anymore.

You must have been asked this a

gazillion times, but the the actions you

then took based on seeing a kid on on a

video are bizarre.

Yeah, they are bizarre. Yeah, I like

Googled uh the background of of the

church to look up the businesses and

then called the regions of Canada school

boards to figure out where he was cuz

his mom had a different name than him

cuz her name was Mlette, his was Bieber.

So, I went a little crazy to find him

within 24 hours. Once I saw him, I kind

of knew in person or No, I knew when I

saw online, I was like, "This is the kid

I've been looking for." And I I felt the

same way about Asher. I mean, I

relentlessly kind of pursued both of

them. I had a clear vision to like what

I could do and what he was capable of.

And it was funny cuz no one believed me.

I mean, even after we met and we did the

deal and we started working together,

literally no one believed me. And

YouTube was not a big thing back then.

So when I took him from 60,000 views and

we took him to like 60 million, now he's

like one of the biggest YouTubers in the

world and everyone's like, "Yeah, you

YouTubers don't turn into musicians,

though." What were the first principles

that you saw in him? Like what were the

Cuz I when I think about having those

moments where my intuition just says yes

to something. Tone. Okay.

Charisma. Um it was

like he had incredible tone and he had

soul and he had charisma. He was doing

like there was one where there was an

instrumental and he was like jumping

around and I just believed in him

instantly and then when I met him he had

even more charisma. He was funny and I

was like all right this kid let's go.

And he was an athlete so he was

competitive. He was a very special

special talent and very unique

individual and uh those were special

times. And you flew in to meet him and

his mother? No, they flew to me. Oh,

okay. I talked to her for like an hour

and a half that night and uh first plane

ride they ever went on and I remember he

was so excited that there was a fridge

inside his hotel room.

His mother

said, "Speaking of you, Scooter really

believed in Justin from day one. He put

everything on the line for

us." And and they put it on the line for

me, too. You know, they believed in a

25year-old kid. and uh we were able to

achieve some amazing things and I'm very

proud of what we achieved and always

rooting for him.

How's your relationship with Justin now?

Um not the same that it was. I think you

know these things go eb and flows. I

think there comes a point where I

understand he probably wants to go on

and and show that he can do it. I mean,

we we worked together for so long and we

had such extreme

success and I think you get to a point

as a as a man where you want to show the

world you can do it on your own and uh I

completely respect that and I think at

this point that's what he's doing and

myself and and everyone from the old

team is rooting for him. But I stopped

managing two and a half years ago and

now I'm I'm a cheerleader from the side

and you know I I want everyone that I

worked with to do well. I think

sometimes when you walk away from

management I've heard managers which I

never understood they'd be like deep

down when behind closed doors they don't

want to see them do as well without them

is almost like you know them succeeding

is is tarnishing your legacy. Mhm.

Every artist that I worked with, I

believed in them because they were

great. And if they continue to be

great, I think that's the best testimony

to that belief. So to see Justin move

forward and succeed, to see Ariana, you

know, with what's happened with Wicked

in this past year, um to see Tori Kelly,

you know, to see everybody that I've

ever had a chance to work with, to see

them go on and do great things on their

own, it's awesome.

Is there anything that these individuals

have in common at all? These people that

pain. Pain. Yeah, I think it's pain.

Personally, I think

um to be able to convey emotions on the

level that it touches people around the

world, you have to understand emotions.

And I think um I think great

artists, great performers are able to

draw from different places. And

sometimes it's joy and sometimes it's

pain. Um and sometimes it's just a

natural god-given gift.

How important is hard work? Oh, it's

very important. I think especially in

the beginning. In the beginning, you're

stepping into a pool where everyone

talented wants to be seen and you have

to work incredibly

hard to break out of the noise. So, and

by the way, I don't think that's

particular to artists or music or film

or TV or anything I've done with

entertainment. I think that's every

business I've ever been a part of. The

first three to five years of any

business I've ever built in any arena or

worked with anyone who's ever achieved

anything great, those first three to

five years are the most important.

Sounds like something I said to my

girlfriend.

[Music]

Um, it sounds like, you know, same thing

with relationship. Maybe put in the

foundation those first three to five

years and really be there together. I I

really believe that. I

think you put in that time in the

beginning and you can break through the

noise and set a foundation for

everything else.

When I think about Justin's career, he

he had a a wobble um where he was

involved in lots of sort

of uh you know, it looked like he was

going through a bit of difficulty. And I

reflect on one of my friends, Liam

Payne, and who was on this podcast and

who's sadly passed away now, but he also

around the same age was thrown into the

public eye at a very young age. He

joined One Direction, went on the crazy

crazy wild roller coaster ride that is

One Direction. And he admitted on the

podcast that he struggled. He struggled

with addiction. He struggled with lots

of pain that he was dealing with. And

his story has is a an inspiring one

ultimately, but also a tragic one in

many

respects. Why does this happen to so

many young artists, childhood stars?

You know, when you ask me this

question, at this age, I feel a lot of

guilt. Um, I feel a lot of guilt because

I worked with so many young artists and

like I told you, I hadn't taken the time

to look at myself or

um do the therapy myself until I was

older.

So I didn't understand at 25 years old,

at 27 years old, at 30 years

old

that they each were coming from very

unique backgrounds of their own stuff

with their own families and their own

childhoods and growing up this way and

being seen by the whole world and being

judged by the whole world at a very

young age. And I think it's two things.

I think one, human beings are not made

to be worshiped. I think we're made to

serve. And I think that when we worship

human beings, it changes something

within us. It it messes us up a little

bit because that's not what we're built

for. And I think that can be very

confusing. And I think being able to

transcend the childhood of, you know,

people cheering your name and and

everything else at that level and get to

the place where the artists I've worked

with are where they are in healthy

relationships and and with their

families and and still working through

stuff, but like having a human

experience, I think it's a testament to

their strength. So, I think that's part

of it. I just think the nature of of

being on that stage, you know, that

young and people chanting your name and

I didn't realize that till, you know, I

got older. The other side of it is I

never understood even without me. I

didn't have that childhood yet. I

broke. And what I think also is

important is um I don't think we

can push everything. I think adversity

is important. We can't just talk about

mental health and say adversity

shouldn't exist. But I do think I

understand the importance now

of of really putting in the time to make

sure mental health is addressed and that

we have an outlet to speak to someone

outside of the crew. Um, and there's a

lot of things that I learned within

myself that I wish I knew back

then. I met those One Direction kids

when they started. They came to LA and

actually the whole group cuz Nyall

reached out to me. They came to my house

to hang out in the backyard when they

were first starting before they really

blew up, like their first US visit to

LA. And I met Liam back

then. And I met the excited young kid

with the with the

voice. Yet each one of them has had a

different experience. Each one of them

has had a

different story of perseverance and

tragedy. Um, and that's the thing. It's

like with kids, like you just never know

what the cocktail is going to make of

life. Um, and I

think I think you know that idea of

we're not made to be woripped. That can

play funny things on the mind.

The brain isn't even developed until

you're 25, they tell me. So, I don't

even know if mine's developed at 43. But

I've sat here with so many

neuroscientists that have said that to

me and it and also addiction scientists

that say the brain is still learning and

building it sort of like dopamine

receptors and stuff. So Liam was telling

me that he he was up on stage in front

of 100 odd thousand people in

Dubai. Huge adrenaline rush, huge surge

of dopamine. Then they drive him back to

his hotel and he was like they lock the

door and it's just me in there with the

mini bar and then the the next day it's

the exact same thing. Stage, car, hotel

and without the stage you were looking

for that dopamine hit. Yeah. No, it's

it's

uh like I said, it's I'm very proud

of the job that we did and how much we

cared and how much the team cared for

all the years that we did

it. But it doesn't mean I don't look

back and wish that I knew what I know

now. How would you have been different?

I think I would have had a therapist on

the road for all of us.

like you know I think that's the biggest

difference. I think I would have slowed

down all of us. I think I made would

have made every single one of us stop

and do that hour, you know, because we

were all kids and we were all moving so

fast and we all wanted to succeed so bad

and we all

wanted the excitement and we wanted to

make kids dreams come true and bring

them down from the upper decks to put

them in the front row and, you know, to

help Justin get that number one and, you

know, to help Ariana do this and we all

wanted it and we we're excited and we

were doing something that was so unique

and everyone in the world was so excited

for us, you know, oh my gosh, you guys

are a part of this. This is so

cool. I didn't

know I didn't know to go inward for the

dopamine

hit. And I wish I would have known that

and been able to share it back then.

when Justin ultimately said that he

wanted to kind of go it alone and do it

himself. Does that hurt? No, not at that

point I think I was also at that point,

you know, at at that point it had been a

couple years where I knew I wanted to do

something else and I I wanted to find

out who I was. I wanted to experiment

with, you know, a different career and

we were both communicating enough with

each other. Everyone the writing was on

the wall. How many clients Oh god, that

we would know a lot. Cuz when I was

doing my research, I was like, "No,

surely not." Karly Ray Jeepson and then

um Martin

Garrick's Kanye.

Yeah. Can you give me the top 10 off the

top of your head that you worked? I

would never say a top 10. A good manager

knows how to do that, but I got I got to

work with a lot of incredible artists a

long time. I mean, from Zack Brown Band

to Black IPs to Justin to Ariana to, you

know, Martin Garrick's we signed um

while he was at Club Med with his

parents. We contacted him because he had

the song Animals and we heard it. Um to

Dan and Sheay to I mean just to so many

over the years. It was pretty incredible

to be a part and so close to so many

incredible stories, you know, and to

see, you know, going to a coffee shop to

see Tory Kelly sing to seeing her walk

on a Grammy stage. It just I got to see

really incredible moments in people's

lives to you know Demi telling me I want

to sing the national anthem at the Super

Bowl you know and showing me a tweet

that she wrote this years ago to seeing

her actually perform you know you know

uh at the Super Bowl you know so

it's it's just been a really cool

experience but I got to see it in so

many different arenas and and you're

only there for a flash right you have

this little tiny small moment here a

little tiny small moment

But to get to witness so many different

rides, it's a really cool thing. And I

remember as a kid, I heard this great

saying, don't just read stories, try to

be a part of them. Try to be a story.

And I think I've always tried to take

that into my life. Crazy. Crazy. Why? I

was I was there was a second ago when

you were talking and I was just I

stepped into your body for a second and

I ran the highlight reel of your life

just as Justin's um sort of manager and

I was thinking God like the places you

must have been and the things you must

have seen just as his manager let alone

working with all of these other great

artists. It's not just a lifetime of

experience. It's multiple

lifetimes of fortune to get to even see

those things. I met a guy years ago and

um I'll name drop here. So I I got

invited to meet Charlie Munger. Oh yeah.

The investor. Yeah. And everyone was

asking him questions about business and

I asked him a question about life. And

afterwards his guy contacted me. He

goes, "Charlie liked your question. He

wants you to meet this other guy that he

really likes who's a brilliant

businessman. And I meet this other

gentleman and he tells me he's a

statistician by trade. And the reason

he's excited to meet me is cuz people in

my world who are part of so many

different stories live in dog

ears because they get to be a part of

kind of so many other people's things.

Yeah. Um but it's uh it's a unique

thing. But I told you

it the biggest lesson I learned from all

of

it is that at one point in my life I

received so much praise and then the

received so much

hate.

And on the other side of all these

experiences I've come to learn that both

were not deserved.

The people who were praising me did not

know me and the people who hated me did

not know me. And it's like one of my

favorite uh I saw Tom Hanks say this on

like an actor's table one time. He goes,

"This too shall pass." You remember

that? Yeah. Yeah. It's so great. He's

like, "You think you're killing it? This

too shall pass." He's like, "You think

it's going to be hard? This too shall

pass." Like it's true. So what do you

anchor in then if so much is transient

at this point in life generally? What

what does one anchor in? If everything

is transient, if you know this too, you

don't have kids yet. I have a major

anchor and three kids. Major anchor.

What if you don't have kids? If you

don't have kids, that's when you should

definitely do the selfwork cuz your

anchor's you. And and the truth is I've

really gotten to a beautiful place of I

fully expect to be misunderstood in the

future. I expect tomorrow something can

happen where especially because my life

has been somewhat in the public eye. You

get misunderstood all the time. People

make up stories. They twist things.

Someone's hurt. It comes out this way,

that way. I could get pulled into this

stuff. It's happened to me already. And

so, I've come to terms with that. What

I've realized is being on the other side

of it already happening to me. All it

does is end up making room for something

else. So, for me, what anchors me

is I no longer think I'm in control, but

I think I'm participating in one hell of

a game. I can't control the outcome. I'm

Steph Curry and LeBron could be at the

height of their game, but even they

can't control the game. they can

influence it. And so that for me it was

like the first half of my life was I'm

manifesting. I'm manifesting. I'm doing

this that youthful energy. And then you

turn 40 and this stuff happens and you

start the other half of your life.

You're like, you know, Michael Singer, I

need to surrender. You know, you're at

their surrender experiment, you know,

like everything surrender. And then I

realized there's a balance. There's this

balance

of I'm participating in an incredible

game and I can bring what I bring to the

table and I'm not going to be able to

control this game, but maybe I should

start enjoying the game a little bit.

I'm out here. I'm participating. That's

pretty freaking cool. And I

think that is what anchors me at this

point that I have no idea what the next

5 to 10 years of my life are going to

look like. I used to think I did. Now I

know it can change like that. And I

think I'm excited for love in the

future. I'm excited for adventure. I'm

not looking forward to the pain, but I

know if it comes, there's a reason for

it.

So, tell me about a an artist that you

believed in. You don't have to name

them, of course, but an artist you

believed in you were wrong about

something you really just your first

principles were off. And in hindsight, I

had an

artist who

was honestly maybe the most talented

artist I ever signed. His name was

Spencer Lee.

And Spencer Lee got brought to me by a

buddy of mine named Freddy. Uh, and we

did a deal for Spencer and Dave

Appleton, who I told you about, my buddy

was trying to handle in management. And

Dave started calling me saying, "Hey,

there's some real addiction issues here

and we're really struggling." And we put

him into rehab. And then he wrote one of

the most incredible songs, River

Water. River

Water. Send away my worries, please.

[Music]

River, take me

down. Show me the dreams that I never

[Music]

found about addiction. And when he got

out, we thought, okay, he's going to be

clean and everything great. We made this

video and we started getting going. We

made the Spencer Lee Band and we started

putting him out there like paying for

everything to kind of get it going and

he started doing festivals and we

started getting phone calls of like,

hey, people are coming to see this

insane talent with this voice

and he went uh back to drugs and

um he overdosed last year and uh he's no

longer with us. And we got the news cuz

his grandmother, who's the sweetest, she

called to say thank you for trying and

everything else. And that was the love

of her life and she lost him. And

um that one I got wrong

because I thought, you know, maybe if we

get the records right, if we get the

music, if he gets on the road, you know,

he gets out of rehab, like, you know,

this would be enough. It's one of the

biggest tragedies cuz I I can't tell you

how good he was. I mean, he just a

special special talent. You listen to

this guy's records. Sometimes I always

say I want to like reach out to his

family and be like, let's just release

the records like the ones that I have

that the world's never

heard and I, you know, I all the money

should go to, you know, a cause, you

know, to help people in a similar

situation. I wish we could do that. I'd

love to get permission to do that. Um

cuz he was one of the most special

talents I ever came across. They don't

want to release the records.

It's complicated.

Last week I was in New York interviewing

one of the world's leading addiction

experts. And if for anyone that hasn't

been through addiction, it's a very

confusing thing to observe. Because as

an onlooker, you just go just stop that.

You're self-destructing. But if you've

had friends that have dealt with

addiction, you realize that it's not an

attempt to self-destruct. It's like an

attempt to

Yeah. Yeah, it's like it's maybe the

last attempt to do the opposite to

survive to survive from something. When

I was dealing with addiction with

someone I managed, um someone I really

respect told me about Alenon, uh Alanon

is for a support. It's like aa but for

the families and they recommend I go and

I went to two Alanon meetings and it was

very helpful at the time and one of the

things I learned there was one this

concept of it is not your fault. you

this is not about you that you have to

love them where they're at. You can you

know but the biggest thing I really

learned was be a rock you know like this

person said to

me home doesn't move around home is a

constant place that someone can come

back to. If someone beats addiction it

is because of them. You know they've

made that choice and they deserve the

credit. But if you want to be helpful

this person said just try to be a

constant place. They know that no matter

what at the end they can come back and

they and you'll be waiting.

Understanding your story, you stuck

around with Justin when he went through

his his difficult times and people were

calling for you to drop him and

to maybe move on. Yeah, I think it was

an interesting time. But like I said, if

someone beats that, they deserve the

credit. So I don't I don't deserve any

credit in that. He does. You ended up

posting that post on your Instagram

which sent a ton of headlines around the

world saying that you were quitting

music management. 23 years after 23

years. There was a little bit of a

question mark though because I think you

referenced in something you'd posted

that part of your inspiration or a

catalyst was a particular

artist had decided that they wanted to

go their own way. Yeah. Who was that? I

prefer not to say like there's a bunch

of legal stuff around that everything

else but uh she

uh she informed me and I respected the

hell out of it that she was she felt

that way and uh but I had had that

conversation with others too and and

um I wrote I mean I wrote it all in 23

years. The reason I posted that at the

time was I had already made the decision

a year prior but I'd never talked about

it. And you know, when you're running a

big company, there's all these, you

know, legal things. And we had to wait

till everything was in order and then I

could say it. And um and they were like,

"Well, you've already been out of it for

a year. Why say it now?" And I just felt

I need to say it for me, but I also need

to say it so I hold myself accountable

not to ever go back. Okay. And I, you

know, it was way too long. It was like

10 slides on Instagram. No, it was

incredible. But it was uh I appreciate

you saying that, but it was from the

heart. And I remember waking up, posting

it, and then just like falling down

because I was like, "Oh my god, like

this thing I've been doing since I was

19 is now over." And what I wrote in

there is the truth. My entire adult

life, that's all I had known. So not

being in that situation, I didn't know

what a normal adult life was like. I

didn't know you could have a weekend.

Like I didn't know, you know, like

that's what it was. I was on call all

the time for 23 years. And it wasn't

one, it was a lot. And um finding out

what a normal adult life was like was

pretty wild to me and also really

interesting. But I don't I had some of

the most incredible memories and I'm

very grateful. But if you remember, do

you remember the Barry Gordy quote at

the end? No, I don't. Barry Gordy is the

founder of Mottown Records. Barry Gordy

is a kid from Detroit. Michael Jackson's

theater play. Barry Gordy. Correct. Yes.

So before Barry Gordy, black musicians

would make incredible music and a white

person could come along and just cover

it and make it

theirs. And Barry Gordy took that back

and gave us Mottown Records and changed

the entire music industry. And I was at

a dinner and Barry Gordy was placed next

to me and I was just like freaking out.

Barry Gordy sit next to me and we start

talking and this is years

before he said, "I'm going to tell you a

story and you're going to need it one

day." And boy was he

right. And he said, "You know, do you

know what the Mottown 25 was?" And I

said, "Absolutely. It was the first time

Michael Jackson did the Moonwalk, Diana

Ross." And he's like, "Oh, you really

are a Mottown fan." I was like, "Yeah."

And he said, "Well, do you know I didn't

want to go?" I said, "What?" He goes,

"Yeah, I didn't want to go." At the

time, Michael had left for CBS Records.

Diana had left for CBS records and

everyone was saying that I took their

publishing and I was like the bad guy

for all these people that I had

supported and lifted and like I was so

angry and I didn't want to go. I said,

"What changed?" He goes, "My family made

me go." And I said, "Yeah, cuz I

remember you were in the balcony and I

kept cutting to you." And he goes, "You

know, the first I get there and Diana

Ross is hosting. Michael's going to

perform. He's the biggest thing in the

world. I'm I'm mad." But as the night

went on, I suddenly realized little

Barry from Detroit would have lost his

mind knowing this was coming. He said,

"Young man, it will never end the way

you want it to, but it doesn't mean it

didn't

happen." And I didn't know how much I

needed that in the years to come. You

can plan it. You can try and control it

as much as you want, but Barry God was

right. it will never end the way you

wanted unless you're Derek Jeter on the

Yankees but or you know you're messy but

um but most of us it's not going to end

the way we wanted however it happened

and how cool is that like how cool is

that that like we get to do this and get

to have this life and I thought that's

the way I wanted to end 23 years because

the me stopping managing and ending

managing and it didn't end the way I

necessarily really wanted. I would have

wanted a giant concert where all the

artists come out. We celebrate

everything we did together. It ended

pretty abruptly of like, oh, this is it.

And some want to leave and some want to

stay and yeah, I'm done. I don't want to

do this anymore. And some people

understood it and other people didn't,

but it happened. And no one could ever

take that away. Did you ever feel

betrayed? Oh, of course. But I'm sure

that goes both ways.

Like as much as I felt betrayed, like

music business can be heartbreaking.

Management can be heartbreaking. If you

watch David Geffin's documentary, he

says uh management is like move the

mountain over here and they say it was

supposed to be there, you know, but like

but at the same time it must be

heartbreaking the other way. It's such

an interdependent relationship and it's

such I don't I you know people always

say stay on your side of the street. I

try to do that. It's easier for me to

move on with my life and be happy by

staying on my side of the street. So

yeah, I've definitely felt betrayed a

hundred times. I've definitely felt

misunderstood so many times. But I also

try to give empathy of if someone is

doing this to me, they must be hurting

for some reason. And maybe I did play a

role in it even if I don't know I did,

you know.

So do you feel betrayed? Yes. Especially

in a job of service. Yeah. But yeah,

you're right. We all do have a

preconception of how how the run will

end. Man, we're all the protagonist in

our own story.

Now that there's been some space between

that decision. Yeah. Two and a half

years. Two and a half years since that

decision. Wow. Two and a half years.

Wow. It feels like it was 6 months ago.

Well, it was two and a half years for

me. Okay. It's been probably a year and

a half since I probably posted that.

Okay. You've had some space since that

decision. correct decision. Yeah. Oh,

yeah. Even high conviction now that it

was the right thing. Yeah. And like I

said, it happened. In hindsight, it was

what it was supposed to be at the time

it was supposed to be. I think the

reason why I wrote 23 years and why I

quit, I wouldn't say I quit when I

retired and stopped doing that. When I

moved on, how about that? When I moved

on to something else was because what

exactly what I wrote it

was I was too afraid to find out who I

was without it for so long that I

probably should have left earlier. But I

finally got to a point where I realized

either you do it now or something.

You're going to have to learn the hard

way again, you know? So, it was time

and it was time for some of the most

amazing artists that I worked with to

also spread their wings and do their own

thing. I think B2B marketeers keep

making this mistake. They're chasing

volume instead of quality. And when you

try to be seen by more people instead of

the right people, all you're doing is

making noise. But that noise rarely

shifts the needle and it's often quite

expensive. And I know as there was a

time in my career where I kept making

this mistake that many of you will be

making it too. Eventually I started

posting ads on our show sponsors

platform LinkedIn. And that's when

things started to change. I put that

change down to a few critical things.

One of them being that LinkedIn was then

and still is today the platform where

decision makers go to not only to think

and learn but also to buy. And when you

market your business there, you're

putting it right in front of people who

actually have the power to say yes. And

you can target them by job title,

industry, and company size. It's simply

a sharper way to spend your marketing

budget. And if you haven't tried it, how

about this? Give LinkedIn ads a try. And

I'm going to give you a $100 ad credit

to get you started. If you visit

linkedin.com/dary, you can claim that

right now. That's

linkedin.com/diary. You sold your

company for $1.1 billion. That's what I

read. You can't confirm or deny, but

that's publicly traded, so I can

confirm, but I don't like talking about

it. Okay. You sold your company for $1.1

billion, which I don't think people

realize it's a [ __ ] lot of money.

Um, at 39 years old, roughly, I was

about to turn 40. You talk about laying

on the beach. Yeah. With your belly out.

Yeah. I mean with a significant amount

of money in your bank account without

the

same job that's sort of demanding your

time seven days a

week. A lot of people are scared of

that. Lot not not the money but the gap,

the uncertainty, the space.

Honestly, the timing of when it happened

for

me, I was in such a place, like I said,

of surrender that I really wasn't

looking at it as like achievement or

money or something like that. I more

looked at it as what are you going to do

now? Are you going to try and control?

Are you going to participate? Like I

told you earlier and I started to just

be curious for the first time instead of

I love this idea of a competitive mind

versus a curious and creative mind. Mhm.

A competitive mind is what I had and it

is where I was of there's always

something finite when you're

competitive. You know, it's going to

finish. There's going to be an outcome

and then what? But when you're operating

from a curious and creative mind,

there's no

end. You can just continue to create.

You continue to build. And I want I want

to be in that place in my life now of

what how big can I think? I saw this

Jeff Bezos interview the other day and

he just said one of the biggest curses

of an entrepreneur is not thinking big

enough, you know, and I think, you know,

think big. You know, you only get one

ride around this thing. Think big, have

fun, love your friends, love your

family, dance, laugh, cry, you know, do

all the things and get to know yourself

more and more every single day. Just

before that time, we have this whole

Taylor Swift incident. What happened?

Is this the moment you're talking about

where you received Bad Press? Oh, Bad

Press. Yeah. Yeah. That was That's the

When I bought Big Machine, I thought I

was going to work with all the artists

on Big Machine. I thought it was going

to be like an exciting thing. I knew

that Taylor, she and I had only met

three times, I think, in my life, three

or four times. And one of the times it

was years earlier, it was really a great

engagement. She invited me to private

party and we we we respected each other.

We had a great engagement. In between

that time, since I'd seen her last, I

started managing Kanye West. I managed

Justin Bieber. I knew she didn't get

along with them. I had a feeling, this

is where my arrogance came in. I had a

feeling she probably didn't like me

because I managed them, but I thought

that once this announcement happened,

she would talk to me, see who I am, and

we would work together.

and the announcement came out and I'm

calling Scott Borchetta and saying,

"Hey, send me her number. I'm I just

talked to Thomas Rhett and he's excited

and I just talked to, you know, uh,

this, you know, this person and they're

excited and I'm calling, you know,

Florida Georgia line next and oh, and

then this Tumblr comes out and it says

all this stuff and I was just like

shocked."

Um,

and it's it's been five, six years. I

don't need to go back into it, but what

I can tell you is everything in life is

a gift. Having that experience allows me

to have empathy for the people I worked

with who I would always say, "Yeah, I

understand." But I never knew what it

was like to be on the global stage like

that. I never knew what criticism like

that felt like. And like I told you, the

biggest gift that I got from that was

understanding that all the praise I had

received up until that

moment was not deserved. And all the

hate I got after that moment was not

deserved because none of these people

knew me. Yeah. She didn't know me. This

person didn't know me. This person who

met me three times, they didn't know me.

I can show respect for all of them cuz I

don't know them. So, I can love them

where they're at. But the gift of

pain was awareness.

And the other part I was going through

very something very personal shortly

after I was going through the divorce,

my marriage and all these different

things. And it just felt like one after

another. But I look back at those didn't

things didn't happen. I I really think

they're all gifts cuz when when

something's fair, you don't respect it.

When something happens to you that you

feel is fair, you're just like, "Oh, I I

I deserve that." And you move on. You

feel justified because you saw it

coming. When something happens to you

that feels deeply unfair and you can't

fix

it, then you really got to look at

everything and realize the role you

played in this or maybe this or that or

who do you want to be or how

so I'm grateful. But how does one

contend with an unfair world? And I use

the word unfair as well because you know

we've got investigative re researchers

here who looked through everything

relating to that particular deal. And

then we also looked at what's written on

the internet and there's this great

disparity between what actually happened

and what people say happened. Yeah. And

there's actually I think there's a

documentary out there which goes into it

in great detail which Andrew Schultz was

talking talking about on a podcast which

I saw. So I looked at that documentary

as well. I mean look I'm grateful for a

couple things. One my kids were really

young when it happened so they didn't

feel it as much. Yeah. It was very hard

at the time. It was hard on the

marriage. It was hard on our family. But

I also Yeah. But I also don't know what

was being said on the other side, you

know, because I never got to have the

conversation, you know. So I think when

people aren't communicating and refusing

to communicate, a lot of things can get

misconstrued and you, you know, I don't

want to hold any hatred or like I we

everyone moves on, you know. So yes, I

appreciate you saying that. I appreciate

you actually doing the research, but for

me, I choose to see it as a gift. I

choose to see it as being able to have a

perspective that very few people in the

world have knowing what that's like, of

feeling that on a global level. Pain.

Yeah. And also just what does that mean

in reality when you It just felt unfair.

It felt like and but so much but of

course of course it happened to me right

of course because here I was thinking my

value was from all this praise you know

and I and everything was me making sure

that I was living up to it and then this

happens and it's unfair and I can't

control it and of course the universe

was like screaming at me like God's

screaming at me like hey wake up you're

not in control you can't navigate all of

this you don't get to decide what your

legacy is and you you just get to decide

who you are on a daily basis and who you

choose to see in yourself and how you

treat the people that love you and the

people you can actually interact with.

Surrender,

but surrender and participate, you know,

that's the big thing for me. It's more

than just surrender. It's surrender and

participate and just enjoy the ride.

That's why I got the tattoo. You know,

it

was I can't worry about everyone's niece

being mad at

me, you know, like, you know, it it's

what I got to do is is show up for my

niece, you know, and I got to show up

for my friends and my family. And I wish

everyone involved across the board,

whether I know them or not, nothing but

good wishes. When I say specifically

that pain, people don't like think about

how many people on earth have

experienced such a thing. And if you if

I could be a fly on the wall that is

actually just has CCTV for eyes and I

was watching you at that moment in time

just for seven days I got to watch

Scooter, what would I have seen?

Like I said, at that point I hadn't

really done the work. Okay. Um, so

resistance, resistance, trying to

navigate it, trying to understand it,

trying to um figure out how to fix it.

And then I couldn't, but then I did

financially like I couldn't fix the

relationship that I didn't have, but

then I was able to figure out, okay, you

know

what, we will sell it. You know, in a in

a world of streaming, re-records will

only help the old catalog as much as

they help the new catalog. both will get

a bump. I presented that I showed you

know how everyone can be a winner here

and I was able to sell the catalog and I

don't want to go into too much detail

but I but I offered it. It's now come

out very factually that I did offer it.

There's evidence of that multiple times

in that process. They said no. I sold to

someone else and I washed my hands of it

and moved

on. And I actually sometimes look back

to that and I go the universe was trying

to teach me something and I navigated

out of it. I found a way

out. So then the universe went, "Oh man,

we tried to tried to give you a warning

sign. We tried to like you're you're

sailing by in the Titanic and we're

waving like iceberg."

And then the universe said, "Okay, you

really didn't pay attention and you

still aren't doing the work."

Marriage. Cuz that one got me. That one

got me to pay attention. Losing my kids

50% of the time, that one changed

everything.

and the

world that still couldn't move me. I was

still able to figure out the

chessboard, but my kids and my

marriage, that one rocked me and woke me

up. What's really crazy is when I told

you I did this Hoffman

process, I won't tell you the process

because you're not supposed to, but I

can tell you at the end of the week, can

you give it context for anyone that

doesn't know the the Hoffman process is

is one week, no phone, no email,

um, intense work on your early childhood

to understand why you are the way you

are and give you tools to go out in the

world and understand yourself. The

reason I

went October of 2020, my marriage was

falling apart. The whole world thought I

was crushing it. Ariana's crushing it.

This Justin's cr all these people like

we're on

fire.

And I had a suicidal thought for 20

minutes where I was like, if my marriage

is going to fall apart, I'm not going to

be with my kids all the time. I can't

control this. I'm not going to be this

perfect image that I've presented to the

world. And if I can't be this perfect

image, I don't want to be here. And it

went to a very dark place. And after 20

minutes, I said, "What the hell was

that? That's not me. I would never leave

my kids. I don't want to like leave

anybody. Like, what was that? And the

next morning, I was on the set of a

video shoot. And a friend of mine called

and he said, you know, what's going on

with you? And I told him I told him

about that night before. He called me

back with another friend and they said,

you need to go to Hoffman. We did it. It

changed our life. They told me that they

could get me in in two weeks because

there was a cancellation October 24th

and that was the release of Ariana

Grande's Dangerous Woman album. It was

the busiest week of the year for me at

work. And I started laughing in the

parking lot of this video shoot. And she

goes, "Do you want us to pick another

week?" I said, "No." I said, "I've spent

my whole life pursuing these things,

doing this, choosing this, choosing

scooter, choosing that life, choosing

the clients, and I'm the top of my game.

Yet, I wanted to kill myself last night.

Something's got to change." And I chose

to go to that place instead.

And the hard stuff actually came after I

got out of Hoffman. You know, I ended up

going through a divorce. I ended up

going through all this different stuff.

But I never was depressed again. And the

most interesting thing that happened on

the other side of it is six years ago, I

was biggest manager and the perfect

marriage and you know, everything I

touch turned to gold and there was no

negative press about me ever. Six years

later, I'm divorced. I don't manage

anymore. I've had negative press and I

couldn't be

happier. It doesn't mean it doesn't eb

and flow, but I get to be the dad I've

always wanted to be and the friend I've

always wanted to be. And it doesn't mean

that things aren't going to go, you

know, be hard and I'm going to say

suffer more things and go through them,

but I'm in a place that I understand a

morati. It's like everything is a gift

and I'm being super long- winded, but

that's the story. that phone call the

day after that to your friends. Yeah.

Did you tell him the truth on the phone?

The full truth? Yeah, I did. And what

was that full truth that I had the night

before thought about, you know, just

shutting it all off. It wasn't even an

idea that I wanted to die. I just wanted

the noise in my head to go away. I

wanted the failure, the disappointment,

the fear. I was going to fail in my

mind. I couldn't control it. I'd always

been able to navigate out of failure and

head towards success. A pit stop. But I

had left what I found at Hoffman. I told

you is my name, the inner child, the

Scott. I had built this mask so big. I

wanted to feel like me again. And I

didn't realize how far away I'd gotten

from that. Building up this armor,

building up the mask. You know, I I want

to tell you something funny. I usually

don't say names in these things, but I

want to give him credit cuz I think it's

hilarious. Michael Rapino is the CEO of

Live Nation. He's an amazing guy. I

think he's one of the most impressive

people in the entire entertainment

industry because he wields so much

power, but he also empowers other people

so

well. And after the divorce, after, you

know, the big machine and and stuff that

happened with that, all these different

things. And you know what Michael told

me? He goes, "I like you a lot more now

cuz you seem human."

you know, and he told me he was like

before, he's like, "Nobody goes on like

it's like this." He's like, you know, I

just didn't He goes, he goes, "I didn't

think you were real. I thought you were

full of shit." And he was right. I mean,

it I didn't know myself cuz I had no

reason to do so. And it wasn't until I

had some real hardships and real pain

and real scares and real rock bottom

moments that I started looking at myself

and started figuring out who I was. And

then everyone got to know me. my best

friends since I was 11 years old.

They're the people I hang out with the

most. Um, two of them live out here,

Mike and V. And I hang out with them all

the time. And people who know me, they

know these guys because they've been my

friends since we were 12 years old, 11

years old. And Mike and Vuke told me at

40 years old when I was doing this work,

"We've known you since you were 11 and

this is the most we've ever known you."

And I'm not surprised or insulted

because they say you haven't changed but

we didn't know you because I was always

even to them

presenting what I thought they needed me

to be

perfect and then I broke and then I said

this happened and this happened when I

was a kid. This was going on and this

was and they were like we love you and I

really became one of the boys for the

first time in my life. I became one of

the boys because the boys became

vulnerable. I thought it was the

opposite my whole life. I thought you

had to be cool. You had to be tough to

be one of the boys. And it was funny

because they didn't all the

achievements. Not only did they not give

a [ __ ] about I probably lost touch with

them more so. And when everything fell

apart, they were the ones that were

there, the ones who knew Scott, the ones

who didn't care about any of it. And

I've never really even said that out

loud to this extent until right now. And

I'm actually glad I get to say on here

both their names because

they

damn they picked me up and in a really

really tough time and a time where I

couldn't even look at my own brothers

cuz I was too

ashamed and

um and I never felt like one of the

guys. like I felt like I had those

friends, but I just couldn't let them

all the way in because I felt, well,

maybe I'm smarter, maybe I'm this, maybe

I need to be perfect. And it wasn't

until I really hit rock bottom that I

realized that they always had my back

and I made all these stupid ideas in my

head

and they

were they were there and they weren't

there for Scooter, you know, they were

there for Scott. And I see you getting a

little emotional too because you

probably have the same type of friends.

So I'll I did it so you can do it too.

What are their names? Well,

Michael, Ash,

Dom, Anthony, and Oliver. But they are

they're the constant. They're the

they're there through everything. The

up, the down, the up, the down, the up,

the down again. And they don't give a

crap about any of this [ __ ] about

anything. In fact, if your friends are

like mine, they're brutal about this

stuff.

My friends rip me. Like if people saw

the text messages between us, they would

think we hate each other. Um, but we

love each other deeply. And and the best

part about the messages is the random,

"Hey guys, I love you." You know? I It

happens all the time. I'll get a phone

call, I'll pick up, I'll just see Paul.

Hey brother, I love you. Just want to

call and tell you. I'm really grateful.

Like I have so many different people I

can name. And what was really

interesting

is before all this happened, I don't

know if you can relate to this,

but I spent so much

time trying to impress people who didn't

want to love

me instead of realizing how many people

already did.

I was just thinking what a great shame

it is that the amount of units of energy

we exert on as you said like the

external like the audience whereas when

you ask me who would be there for me

irrespective of what was going on in my

life I can name them and then I ask

myself how much energy and effort am I

putting into these relationships and I'm

embarrassed about how much energy and

effort I'm putting into these

relationships. I'm like embarrassed by

it. I'm like and they'll still be there.

Yeah. They don't care. Yeah. Yeah. And

and that's the best part cuz when you do

start putting your energy, it becomes

even more fun.

It's really it's really um it's really

difficult for me to understand and this

is my naivity. The part that's difficult

for me to understand is you family meant

so much to you. Didn't you have a tattoo

that says family?

First one I was 18. You got a tattoo at

18 about your future family. Correct. So

family has been this like dream and

ambition of yours. Mhm. So, it's

surprising to me as someone who was

naive in this

context that some it had to be

threatened for you to care enough to No,

I cared. I just uh childhood trauma is a

hell of a thing, man. Yeah. It's um and

we all have it. That was the thing. The

reason I didn't think I had it is

because I had friends who, you know, had

parents who were alcoholics. I had

friends who had parents who this. So, I

always thought, you know, both my

parents are here. They love me. like the

stuff I dealt with that's not real. You

know, I come from an immigrant family.

Like we can deal with this. Like we're

strong. You know, that's not real. And

what I realized

is everyone has trauma. That's the human

experience. And the faster we value our

own trauma and stop trying to downplay

it because we don't think it equals

someone else's, the more we can work on

ourselves. Because all you get to do is

work on yourself. You don't get to work

on the other person. Yeah. like you can

really only work on yourself. You can

help the other person, but the work

that's only here.

And I think that I saw my life is

perfect. So why change

anything? And that's why you're smiling.

Stop calling me out. Yeah, you're

smiling. So true. Because you see your

life is perfect and she's screaming at

you. She's screaming at you and trying

to and you can't see it. She's not

screaming just yet. She is

increasingly expressing to me and yeah

in her own way that there is

an issue and I I'm going to be

completely honest because this is why I

started this podcast was the diary of a

CEO. So this is what would be written in

my

diary. The alarm is getting louder and

I'm still in a a state where I think

I've got a a lot of time before the

alarm is so loud that I can't fix it. I

got you. I see you, buddy. Trust me. I

see. And here's the funny thing. I don't

want to go into details because I have a

lot of respect. We're family forever.

It goes both ways. It's not like there

was one thing happen. It both people

have to play a role in where we got to.

You know, things happen on, you know,

both ways.

However, Chris Rock says something

really special. He goes, "Relationships

are actually quite easy. You know, you

ever try to pick up a couch with two

people? No problem. Pick up a couch by

yourself." And that was the thing. We we

both went to pick up the couch at

different times

and we were made to be amazing

co-parents. We were made to come into

each other's lives to help each other be

better in different ways through the

heartbreak of our relationship ending.

And we were we were brought together to

make three incredible

souls. And now whoever gets me next is

in for a

treat cuz I'm a better version than I

was before.

And in hindsight, what are those warning

signs for someone like me who might be

the choices that you make that you

justify? Oh, I got to do this because,

you know, if I don't do this one, it

could all fall apart. No, it isn't. Oh,

God. You know, I if I don't if I don't

stop everything I'm doing and choose

this, it could all fall apart. Or, yeah,

okay, you're saying this to me, but you

don't really mean it because you don't

understand what I'm going through cuz

I'm in this grind. And I'm in this hunt

that you no one can understand cuz only

I can achieve this. You're smiling cuz

you live. Can I ask you some questions?

Sure.

How long have you guys been together? Uh

6 years now.

And why are you smiling so big? Cuz how

many times have you made those choices?

I know. I just justified [ __ ] And

there's always going to I know logically

there's always going to be something

else. There's always there's never going

to be a perfect time. So, I know

logically that I have to pick imperfect

moments. And do you guys want kids? Yes.

Do you use that as an excuse? Well, the

kids aren't here yet, so I need to grind

now.

I've I've I've certainly thought it as a

way to justify to myself to

self-rationalize. I don't think I've

ever said that to her, but I have said

to her I've said internally. Yeah, I've

said it to myself internally. I've said

to myself like this season of life up

until I'm 35, I'm going to go for it.

And then if I'm good. And then you know

she's looking at you thinking, "I want

to be able to trust you to have

children." Yeah. Yeah.

Listen, a long time ago, someone really

smart ran this little exercise with

me, and I wish I would have paid better

attention to it other than just thinking

it was a cool saying to like use in the

office. He

said, "If I told you someone you loved

was sick and you had a billion dollars,

how much of it would you spend to save

them?"

A billion dollars. Yeah. Correct. And he

says, "Is your loved one, is she

healthy? Does she love you? Is she here

with you right now? Everything you're

working to

achieve with that perspective, you

already have it." Yeah. And they said it

to me, and it sounds great, and I'm

seeing it on your face. You're a smart

guy. It's logical. You're like, "Yeah, I

get it." And then you're going to go

repeat the same stuff because that's

what we do. And what I realized when I

went and did this work was it's not

going to change between you and her or

me and my ex. You know, that wasn't what

it was about. It was actually something

deeper deeper underlying that had

nothing to do with the current

relationship. It had to do with that lie

that I'm not enough. That this person

actually doesn't really love me unless I

do this. Were you happy before the

marriage fell apart? I think so. But I

also didn't know who I was. I think I

was happy because everyone in the world

told me I was doing great and I thought

that that was enough. And I I feel like

looking back now, I feel like I was

asleep at the wheel. I feel like I

didn't know myself at the time and but I

had so much success at such a young age.

So everyone was telling me I was doing

great. So I just chose to believe them.

And it wasn't until I, you know, the

foundation broke and there was nothing

underneath it that I was like, "Oh [ __ ]

I'm actually not happy." And I never

knew. And it's like, I wouldn't go back

to that before all the crap in a million

years. I want to stay here cuz now I'm

like, I'm I'm awake. What is the um the

practical advice you would give me?

Because you can identify where I'm at in

your own story. So, what is the

practical advice you'd give me now to

avoid myself getting into a situation

where one day I have regret because I

didn't listen to the alarm? Couple

things. Okay. Number one, turn the

cameras off and go do some selfwork.

Stop being nudged. Just go do it. Stop

being, with all due respect, a [ __ ]

Okay. I appreciate it. And um and my

group chat. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it it's

just there's no good time in the future.

There's no when I get to 35, when I get

to 36, when I get to 40, there's when I

achieve

this. Go do it. One to two weeks out of

the year will not kill you. It will only

make you stronger because what you're

dealing with with what you're telling me

has nothing to do with the two of you.

It has more to do with your stuff. And

she has to go do her stuff. You have to

see if she wants to go do the same thing

and and work on herself in the same way

cuz it's a constant thing. The second

thing is go on vacations together and

when the kids come, go on vacate. That's

something I think we we forgot to do. We

did the vacations with the kids. We did

the vacations with friends, but we

didn't do vacations together because we

were so we had three kids in 5 years.

Yeah. And I think um you know that's

something I think about. But then also

just trust that like if it's supposed to

be, it's supposed to be. My journey was

supposed to be exactly the way it was.

Even the when I found out things and she

found out

like about ourselves, it was exactly

when we were supposed to find out. So, I

just I'm a firm believer, you know,

you're here to learn exactly what you're

supposed to learn. Have you read Many

Lives, Many Masters? No. By Brian Weiss.

No.

Easy, quick read on a weekend, you'll

enjoy the hell of it. Um Brian Weiss was

the head of psychology at University of

Miami and he was recommended a nurse

from the hospital. Would he see her? And

he saw her and she had deep trauma and

couldn't figure it out. So, he goes,

"We're going to do hypnotic

regression." She does hypnotic

regression. She goes into something from

like age 0 to six that she couldn't

remember. Very traumatizing. He's like,

"Oh, this will make a difference." She

comes back the next week. It's even

worse. That makes no sense to him. He

does hypnotic regression again and she

goes into a past life. He calls

[ __ ] He does another hypnotic

regression. She goes into another past

life and he realizes her educational

background could not know the things

that she's saying that he's looking up.

So, what happens is he just writes a

book about this patient and how she

changed his entire practice. And what

was really interesting about it

is it made me look at death differently

and life differently. We're here to

learn and then if we don't figure it

out, we leave and we come back again.

And if we learn that one, we come back

and it's transitions and but it's never

it's not ending. It's all about coming

here to learn. But I feel like I have so

much to learn and at least I know that

and I'm such a mess and I'm figuring it

out every single day that if Brian

Weiss's book is right, I'm not going

anywhere for a while.

But it's a really amazing way to look.

And what was interesting is when I told

my mom had read it, when I told my dad,

he actually goes, "Well, you know, we're

Jews. We don't believe in

reincarnation." And when I started

studying Cabala, I realized that

actually Cabala teaches reincarnation

almost the exact same way this woman was

describing it, which means

Judeo-Christians actually believe in

reincarnation, but many of us don't know

it. Um, and it was just a really

interesting way of looking at life. Do

you believe in reincarnation? I do. You

do? Yeah, I do. Especially reading this

book and then studying Cabala. And I

started studying Cabala about a year

ago. Um, I like some of the principles

I've learned from Cabala about this idea

of being a

custodian, that nothing is actually

ours, but we're custodians. You know,

that um, God, Hashem is what they say in

Cabala. But um this idea that we're

supposed to give 10% to charity but no

more than 20, you know, because the

belief if God is giving you this, he's

asking you to hold on to it because he

has a purpose for you. But if he chooses

to take it away, you should be just as

joyful because it was never yours in the

first place. You are a custodian. And I

think that's a really great way of

looking at materials, looking at life,

and understanding, like I said,

participating. And I'm getting to play

in this game. But you have your moments,

right?

Yeah. Still today because you're someone

that's done so much work. So it's it's

interesting speaking to you because

you're someone that I would seek advice

on in everything in my life, but you

still have work left to do. You said

there I still have things left to learn.

Well, I think I have a lot of things

left to learn. I find

myself sometimes needing to defend

myself, sometimes not defending myself

when I should. I feel like sometimes I

feel misunderstood or not loved. And you

I I've you know had that moment and then

even on the other side there's times

where you feel like oh you're doing all

this work and people see you as someone

who's done the work and then you don't

want to be seen as someone who's failing

at that work and the truth is that's all

part of the process. It's like a

constant surrender to your your human

experience. The work for me

is life is going to throw the things you

need at you. So, like I said, tomorrow

something could happen that, you know,

I'm being ridiculed again and I'm having

to learn again, you know, or a praise

could come and I'm having to learn how

to handle that. Like, I don't know what

tomorrow is going to bring. It's always

a new experiment. But it's almost as if

like when you're doing this work, people

call it, it's as you're swimming in the

waves and now you have the skills to get

through the wave. The waves still come,

but you're just going through them

differently. Do you wish they wouldn't

come? Hell no. That's life. You know, I

I

asked you said I'd accompany Ithaca.

Do you know where it comes from? No. So,

some people think they're like, "Oh,

Ithaca, New York." No. It comes from a

poem by Kafi. Um, I asked David Geffen

uh years

ago with his extraordinary life and

career. When did he feel like it was

like

enough? I was 30 years old when I met

him. And I asked him that question. the

first meal we ever had. And he looked at

me and he said, "That's not how life

works. It goes up and down this." He

goes, "I want you to read a poem." And

he gives me Ithaca by

Kafi.

And I named my holding company. I had SB

projects, but then when I did the

holding company and started doing other

things, too. I named it after this poem

because I was so moved by it. And the

concept of the poem of Ithaca is you're

on the way to the island of Ithaca in

the Greek islands. And along the way,

you're going to see so many different

things and you're going to meet scholars

and you're going to, you know, learn

wisdom and all these different things.

And when you find Ithaca, finally, if

you find her poor, she did not fool you

because it was never about the

destination. Always about the journey.

And I think right now, if there if I get

to this end game with you, like that's

no fun. Then it's over. So like, keep

the waves coming. Bad skin. I've had it

and I'm sure many of you listening have

had it too or maybe you have it right

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made the biggest investment I've ever

made in a company because of my

girlfriend. I came home one night and my

lovely girlfriend was up at 1:00 a.m. in

the morning pulling her hair out as she

tried to piece together her own online

store for her business. And in that

moment, I remembered an email I'd had

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Your next move could quite frankly

change everything. I I told Daniel E

that I was interviewing you a couple of

months ago and he sat me down in his LA

office and was like, I've got to tell

you a story about that Scooter Bron guy.

I've got to tell you something. He said

that when he made the Forbes under 30

list when he was a young man in I think

Stockholm, Sweden, he said he randomly

got a phone call out of the blue from

you and you had decided to call

everybody on the Forbes 30 under 30

billboard. Oh, the billboard. It was

Billboard 30 under 30. I thought it was

foot Forbes and you decided to call all

every single person on the list just to

introduce yourself. Yeah. I when I heard

that I thought [ __ ] wow.

You don't want to know why? Why? Cuz

every single time I met someone very

accomplished and

successful and they wanted to help me,

they'd say, "Well, who are you trying to

reach?" And they'd say, "Oh my gosh,

I've known them for 20 years, 30 years."

And they would pick up the phone call.

And their power was in relationship that

was

expansive and and long and they knew

each other from the beginning, not that

they had met some powerful club at the

end. And what I realized

was the real power is in

community and I wanted to know my peers.

I wanted to grow with them that we

didn't need to go and find someone who

already had it. We needed to support

each other. How old were you when you

did that? 27. So you were 27 and you

called everybody on that list. Yeah.

Such a cool thing to do. So many people

are now going to go do that, but it's

such a cool thing to do. By the way, I

am an early investor in Spotify because

of that phone call. He was just I'm sure

he told you this. He was just a company

in Sweden. He didn't tell me this part.

Oh, yeah. He was just When I called him,

he was, you know, they were talking

about this new thing, Spotify, but it

was in Sweden. and we met and I tried to

get in right away after we met cuz I was

like what is this and he didn't let me

in at first and then you know I went and

met Shaq you know oh Shaq good friend of

mine I met Shaq in London we walked

around and then DA Wallik was like

advising them and um I ended up getting

to be a significant you know investor at

that point in my life in this you know

new young company Spotify and I have not

sold a share in probably 18 years you

haven't sold a share

No, I'm a firm believer in that company

and I'm a firm believer in Daniel and I

and I think listen I hear all the time

where people are like, "Oh, look, you

know, this is so unfair. Daniel Ek with

his bravery and his

foresight saved the music industry. He

gave value to our industry again. He

found a way to make us go from going in

one direction to the most successful

we've ever been." And I don't think

people realize that and give him enough

credit for what he did. People don't

understand the machine. They just think,

well, record sales went away and now

we've got this streaming fee and it's

lower. So, what is the context we're

missing there? What did he what did that

company do? It gave value to our

business. It gave, you know, uh,

multiples on publishing and masters that

we had never seen before because now

everyone's music can be heard and heard

for a long time. You know, at the time

Daniel came along, all I would hear

going in the music business is, "Man,

you missed the 80s and 90s. Sorry, kid."

You know, this business is going down.

You know, and Daniel with streaming made

it so that, you know, these these major

labels and these independent companies

and, you know, these artists are able to

do things they've never been able to do

before. One on bringing that amount of

revenue to our business, but two, also

bringing our global community together.

And uh and that was Daniel's foresight

and his vision and his uh I mean he

didn't have any relationships. He didn't

know the major labels. Crazy, isn't it?

You know, he he he saved the music

industry. And I think now that you know,

he's the biggest thing in the music

industry. It's easy to point at him as

like the big

bad. And yes, he's always trying to

innovate and change, but he has brought

more money back into our industry than

we ever thought would be there. and um

and I'm grateful to him and I think he

he saved a lot of careers. I also would

like to add a couple of words to that

just to say what an unbelievably humble,

smart, kind human being he is. It's an

impossible story for it for to do what

he did out of Stockholm as well, not

Silicon Valley, and for it to be the

dominant platform and still to be the

best platform even as a podcast. It's my

favorite platform by far. and they've

just decided in the last 2 to 3 months,

which is actually why I was over at

Spotify's office to meet him, that

they're going to start paying podcasters

revenue that we've never been paid

before. They're going to cut us in on

the Spotify membership fee, which means

that again, it's going to fuel this

whole industry. Apple aren't paying us

anything, but Spotify have decided to

pay podcasters who upload on video,

which is going to mean that people can

quit their jobs and and focus. Daniel's

a very innovative guy

and I remember him as the kid I called

on that list and who when he came to the

United States a couple weeks later

played me in ping pong eight times, you

know, and that's how we became friends.

And um he's incredibly humble,

incredibly smart, incredibly

hardworking, and he has changed a lot of

people's lives.

What's next for you, Scooter? Should I

call you Scott or Scooter? Either one.

And I'm proud of both now. Okay. I'm

going to call you Scott. Okay. What's

what is next in if we sit here in 10

years time? Do you have any idea what

that chapter looked like or do you have

any idea what would have had to have

happened for you to consider it a

success?

The only thing I want to make sure is

that you know I stay I want to be the

father to my children, right? That I

that I want to be that I continue that

that's the thing like that's the one

consistent thing. I want to make sure

that I put them first, that they are my

priority because I get them until

they're 18 and then, you know, they're

going to be like, "Dad, we're out."

Yeah. Um, and I'm still going to

obviously look forward to the next

chapter. But, um, I got 10 years of

that. I think something I'm excited

about the next chapter is like, what

does love look like? What does

relationship look like? Um, and then I'm

excited to be a rookie again and try new

things and get into industries cuz I I

said to you before we started

taping, you know, you asked me about AI

and I said, I feel like we're in the

beginning of an industrial revolution

and a cold war at the same time, but

there's just so much opportunity because

things are shifting and things are

moving and we're becoming a more

productive society because like you,

I've gotten to see some of the things

that are coming on the technology side

and it's mind-blowing what's coming and

it's mind-blowing what's already

happening that people a lot of people

don't even realize and the innovation is

going to get faster and faster and

faster and I think the one thing that

will never go away is humans want for

taste for human error for

experiences you know if anything during

co we saw national parks explode people

had time for experiences I think AI is

going to make us more productive we're

going to have more time for experiences

and I'm excited for And I'm excited for

what that world looks like. And I think

there will always be growing pains when

there's change. But on the other side,

societies have always been measured by

productivity, not by wealth. How

productive is that society? We're about

to be the most productive society we've

ever been. It's quite it is quite scary,

but it's also extremely exciting. And I

think I think both responses are quite

natural. I think excitement is often

present where fear is. And um I the

choice that I'm personally just making

is to lean in and to mess around and to

learn. When we spoke earlier, you were

telling me that you'll stay up all night

long like learning how to code with AI

and you're trying to understand all the

AI tools that are in front of us so you

can kind of be first because you feel

like, you know, you weren't at the right

place in the.com boom and you want to

make sure that you're in there.

Can I ask you what you consider success?

Is it you don't want to miss out? Like

what what is the success? Why do you

feel like you want to not miss out? What

do you want to be first to? If you if

you achieve something on the other side

because you actually master AI and you

are one of the first, what are you

hoping happens? So, I think I'm trying

I'm running from a fear and the fear

is I'm 32 now and I've I've been playing

at the frontier my whole life. So like

my first business was in social media. I

rode that wave into sure. It changed my

life. I was relevant. It made me feel

great. I built on on that frontier as

the wave came into shore. Then the

blockchain came around. started a

company called Third Webb, valued $160

million. Amazing. I was on the frontier.

Then this AI thing comes along and it

feels like the wave is coming in and I'm

I've got a surfboard and I've got to

decide whether I want to take this wave

or not. And if I I feel like if I miss

the wave, if I'm not involved, if I'm

not building there,

then it's quite existential. It's like

then I don't know what can happen. And I

don't like that. I don't like the

unknown. And it goes back to many things

we talked about, but I Do you ever swim

in the ocean?

Yes. I'm not the best swimmer in the

world. I'm saying, but you'll go in the

ocean. Yeah. Not just in the beach. Will

you go out in the ocean and get in the

water? If I have my floating vest on cuz

I can't I can't swim. Which is

interesting though. You'll get in

though. Yeah. Yeah.

100%. I have a a top I wear to go in.

No, I understand that. But I I find that

interesting only because the ocean is a

place where you have absolutely no

control. Mhm. You know, it's the ocean

can do what we want. You don't know

what's in there. You know, a lot of

people like I see when they want

control. I realized there were years

that I kind of just didn't swim in the

ocean. I swim on the beach, but I didn't

really want to go into the ocean because

I didn't have control out there, you

know? I didn't know what was in there. I

didn't know what could get me. I didn't

like I couldn't see it coming. I

couldn't control the outcome. And you

talk a lot about this like the need for

control that makes you feel

uncomfortable. But you are also a very

big risk taker. I mean, you're 32 years

old. You've achieved all this. You're

pushing yourself to find out more.

You're defying all the odds. You got the

kid from home who's still talking crap

because, you know, look at everything

you're doing. And and I I guess I'm I'm

intrigued

because one, you don't give yourself the

credit of how much you go into the

unknown. It's almost like you do it out

of fear and necessity, but I'm really

pushing you on like what does success

look like for you? Because you're on the

surfboard. You keep surfing. I'm trying

to figure out like where where is what

is success to you? Is

it you're you're 90 years old and you're

looking back at your life. What are the

things that you could not live without?

You'd be disappointed if they weren't

there.

I imagine it's going to be my kids. I

imagine it's going to be my relationship

with my partner. I think that's the

going back to this sounds like a crazy

thing to say, but if there was a button

on the table and I had to press it to

kill myself or my partner, I'd press it

to kill myself. And that was a really

clarifying thought for me because I was

like, I would literally take my I'd give

my life to save this person, this other

human being, my nieces, my brother, um

my fam, my f my my family.

I'm confused because you haven't named

all the achievements of AI. Hello.

Hello. You haven't named, you know, all

the things that you think you need to

do. You know, the um Ithaca. Yeah. Part

of what I think makes the journey

exciting is being like slightly

terrified and having something that

consumes you and that challenges you and

that scares you a little bit and and

building and experimenting and leaning

in. Like when I was a kid in my bedroom,

I'd turn my bunk bed into a business.

It'd be a salon one week and then the

next week I'd be dismantling my

brother's radio and trying to sell the

parts and like so I've always been

extremely curious, extremely

experimental. I've always tried to build

things. So I think that's my fun, but I

also I these days the more I've done

this podcast, the more I've learned to

like question myself, question what I'm

saying. Listen, I think you're an

incredibly intriguing guy. That's why I

wanted to meet you. And and I love how

much you push yourself and you question

things. But I find it very interesting

that when I asked you about your 90s and

when you look back, you name things that

are very attainable to you cuz you found

someone that loves you and you love

them. Yeah. And then when we're talking

throughout this entire

conversation, it seems that when you

actually open about your personal life,

you spend a lot of your time avoiding

that thing.

and focusing on all these others that

make you feel worthy to experience that

thing. And I I guess like what I'm just

trying to say to you, for as smart a guy

as you are, this is coming from someone

who literally suffered from the same

thing.

The thing that you want the most at 90,

you got

true. The building in your room and the

building with AI should be just fun. H

it shouldn't be terrifying anymore. It

should be fun because the terrifying

thing is turning 90 and not having the

thing you really

want. That's when I woke

up.

And so what does that mean for me? And

what what for anyone that can resonate

with that? What does that mean that they

should do? I know you said like turn off

the cameras and but can you do both? I

don't know. I think everyone's journey

is different. I think everyone

experiences things in a different way.

Some people are able to, like you talked

about with addiction, some people are

able to say just stop and other people

can't. And other people have to go

through a different process to get

there. So I'm trying to understand the

balance though. Like how do I know if

I've got the balance right in that? I

hate that word because uh someone I

really admired said to me, harmonize,

you know. Um so how do I know if Jeff

Bezos was the one who said it? He was

like, don't balance things, harmonize.

Why why weigh things that you love

against each other? You love building in

your room. You love learning things and

building things. You love that. You love

your partner and you want to build a

family with her one day. It's not about

balance. It's about putting them

together. Bring her into every aspect of

it. Bring her into the fears that you

have with this. Bring her into, you

know, that's what I I you know, I didn't

know that. You know, it's it's bring

every aspect of your life together and

share and let them be with the up and

downs and you do do the up and downs and

kind of go across the board. And then

also, like I said, do the work to find

out why you ask all these questions, but

still with all the nudging that's

happened, do the work to find out why

you're so afraid to actually turn off

the camera and just do it. So, are you

saying then to get out of like

competition and get into that curiosity

that you described? You said about these

two states that you can invest in. Look,

I I think being competitive is always a

beautiful thing if used in the right

way. I love that. But I will say to you,

when you talk to me about where the AI

staying up at night, we're building your

company came from, it was a kid building

in his room. Mhm. That kid wasn't

competing with anyone. He was having fun

in his room. He was

building. That's when you're at your

best. It's when you're actually just

building for the joy of building. And I

think along the way, based on our fears,

based on the I'm not enough, based on

all these different things, we start to

take that thing that brought us joy and

we start to think if I don't crush it

now that people are watching me do it,

I'm not good at it.

And you're asking me for like this

question is almost if it's like advice.

I'm trying to figure it out the same

time you are. Yeah. You know, so I guess

I'll pose it back to you. You've done

research. Do you know a little bit about

my

life? What would you say to me? What

should I be doing next? What do you

think I should be nudged to

do? I think what you're what you've done

today is some of the most valuable work

that you can do. And what I say today I

mean is as you've sat here and the

vulnerability that you've expressed the

honesty the nuance to certain points. I

think it's one of the most important

things you can do because many of us

don't get to climb up to the top of the

mountain top and see what's up there.

And you're choosing to go up there and

then shout back down about your

marriage, about business, about your

mental health and everything in between

about mistakes you've made, injustices,

all these kinds of things. probably one

of the most powerful things you can do

because as you you've identified

there'll be a couple of kids, maybe me

being one, who will not have to be

burnt, not have to hit the rock bottom

to learn the lesson. And there's

actually very few people I do this for a

living. There's very few people that

have both that experience and the

ability to articulate it in a way that

is resonant in terms of this next season

of your

life. I mean, you're doing so much well.

Like it was so nice actually hearing you

on the phone to your kids yesterday when

they came over and it was like dad I

want a pencil or whatever he was saying

and you were like Steven you said to me

I've got a you hung up the phone and you

you addressed your kid you called me

back in 10 seconds and I thought there

was something really special and telling

that you were willing to end a phone

call with someone and put the phone away

and immediately be present with your

child to have a conversation with him to

have a conversation then call me back

straight away most people don't do that

so I thought okay he's really this

really means a lot to him in this season

you know when when you just said me what

I did here today. Yeah,

I smiled cuz I was being really honest

with myself and I really appreciated you

saying that. But I also smiled cuz I was

being honest with myself of how funny it

is that when I leave

here, all I've been doing lately when

I'm away from my kids is thinking of

what do I build

next so I can show my value. I'm going

back to that old habit because I'm

excited to build something else. But

when I'm being really deep honest with

myself, really going deep, it comes from

this place of well, if I can do it

again, then I'll show them.

This time will be the one that I'm happy

about. This time, like it's that same

old thing that comes every single time.

And I still want to build something

because I get joy out of that. But same

while I'm giving you this advice, when

you said that to me, I went, "Oh

man, he's right. This is the most

valuable thing I could probably do." But

the reason I don't do it is because deep

down I feel not worthy of it. I feel

like who am I to tell anybody anything?

You know, all of us, we feel like a

fraud when we're giving any kind of

advice. And that creeps up in me and I I

get to this very if I'm being very

vulnerable, it gets to this place of I

don't even want to say, "Oh, thank you

for saying that." at first because I'm

like, "Well, if someone's watching,

they'll be like this arrogant guy or you

get all the voices coming back in your

head." But the truth

is, I want to go and build something

next. I want to fall in love again. I

want to be present for my children.

And I want to be someone who can give

advice from a place of wisdom and be

proud that I give it but also receive it

because I've learned just as much

talking to you. And what I will tell you

is you are way ahead of the game at 32

compared to where I was. Thank you. And

I had a lot of success at 32, but I

wasn't asking these questions and I

wasn't pushing myself the way you did.

And I think it is an incredibly cool

thing that this is what you get to do as

a career cuz I think you get to help a

lot of people.

Um, and don't ever lose sight of the

fact that the kid who was building in

his room is now building in a lot of

other people's rooms and it's really

impressive. Thank you. That means an

awful lot coming from you.

I've been extremely excited by this

conversation and I've been telling

everybody in our team because of the

conversations we have on the phone and I

knew that if those conversations are any

reflection of the conversation we'd have

on my show it would be really pivotal

for me and it has been. It's been the

nicest punch in the face.

[Laughter]

Me too. Right. You know, people have

probably wonder

why

I say all this stuff in public, but um

what an unbelievable opportunity it is

to meet someone like you and get to get

to learn from you genuinely to get to

learn from you. Like what an

unbelievably crazy thing from this kid

from Botswana to get to meet someone

like you and learn from you to the point

that my life has a chance of being

better that I've spoken to you and then

to get to share that with people who I

know are struggling with the same [ __ ]

who are contending with the same

battles. So that is why I I make the

decision to have these conversations in

the way that I do. And um by the way I

just want just cuz I struggle with

giving myself credit. I wanted to say

this to you.

the kid from Basana is teaching me as

well the kid from Kascap, you know, it's

uh as much as like that's an incredible

thing, I wanted to come on here cuz I've

listened to your podcast before and I've

been one of those listeners who grew and

learned from it. So, thank you honestly

and continue to give yourself the credit

you deserve and continue to ask the

questions. I do want to blow a little

bit of smoke up your ass for something

else that you've done because I don't

think people have the all of this

information, but when I looked at the

breadth of philanthropic work that

you've done, whether it's the support

you gave to Manchester, which is the

city that I consider my my hometown

after the um Ariana attack. Ah, oh my

god, you got a B on your arm. But all

these other foundations, the list of

philanthropic work that you've done is

so long that I that I would have to we'd

have to do another podcast just to go

through all of these things. And you

don't talk about it publicly. I don't

see you posting about it all the time.

So for me, that's always indicated that

you're doing it for the right reasons,

but it's incredible. So thank you for

doing that as well. And you deserve

credit that you never you never get for

doing all of these things. And this

inspired me as well because sometimes I

think as entrepreneurs we can fall into

the trap of thinking we we cut down the

forest then donate to the bees. You

know, my mom is the reason um she as I

started building in college, she said,

"Just promise me, you know, you'll do

Sedaka, which is charity within our our

culture to give back." And I basically

said, "Every aspect of my business will

have a give back component." And Shauna

Neep, who runs our family foundation,

like our job is to make the money, her

job is to help me give it away. And um

and sometimes it's with money, sometimes

it's with effort. But I've met so many

incredible heroes, unsung heroes in all

this work. Um, people who really

dedicate full-time their lives to this.

And I really always I always say um my

grandfather before he passed, he said,

"If your glass is filling with water and

you're one of the lucky people in this

world that God continues to pour water

into your glass, well, you better start

pouring it into other people's glasses.

Otherwise, it's just going to spill and

make a mess." And I never forgot that.

But even when you sold Hib, there was

this tremendous amount of money that you

turned around and gave to all the

employees, which a lot of people don't

know about. And you also gave money to

several of your artists. And from what

I've researched, tens of millions were

given to your artists as well. And you

could have kept all that money to

yourself. So when I hear that someone's

gone around and given that much money to

264 of their employees and artists that

have worked with them, you kind of get a

picture of who the guy is. We have a

closing tradition on this podcast where

the last guest leaves a question for the

next guest, not knowing who they're

going to be leaving it for. And the

question that has been left for you is

now I'm nervous. Why do people always

get nervous? It's like a lot of

questions all day. The question left for

you is if you could do one thing that

fear of failure has kept you from doing,

what would it be and why has it kept you

from doing it? Man, if I could do one

thing, that's a really great question.

[Music]

Um, you know, at first I was thinking it

would be like, oh, say sorry to somebody

or this that, but I feel like I've

gotten to do that with people in my life

for the last couple years for things

that like I wanted to kind of talk

about. And some things you realize like

it's just not the season for that. You

know, it takes

two. And I felt myself, it was almost

the fear of saying this out loud. Um,

write write a book. Oh, thank God. Yeah.

I I've always uh I think it's it's my

brother wrote a book, a really great one

called The Promise of a Pencil, and it

was a New York Times bestseller, and I

was always like, "That's Adam's thing."

And I've always wanted to write, but I

always feel like my mind and, you know,

the things I'm working on in myself, all

these things, they change like every

week. And I've always felt like deep

down like, "Oh, yeah, you should write a

book, but like you're really not going

to write a great book if you do." And I

think it's always held me back from

actually just sitting down and doing it.

I got goosebumps then because as in that

silence for some bizarre reason I swear

on my mother's I I was thinking I hope

he says he's going to write a book. I

swear to you that's what went through my

mind. I went I hope he says he's going

to write a book. That's why I went thank

God. Well I didn't say I was going to

write it. I said fear's been holding me

back. But maybe maybe you'll turn off

the camera and go in your nudge and this

will be the nudge for me. Okay. Well, we

hope you do, Scooter, because um I've

been so shocked and blown away by your

wisdom and your ability to articulate

things and the stage of life that you've

you've arrived at is for me as an

objective observer just the perfect

moment. I appreciate that and uh we'll

keep doing the work together and this is

the beginning of a great friendship and

I'm really honored to be here and really

happy for all your success. Thank you.

The feeling is mutual. Thank you,

brother. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Make sure you keep what I'm about to say

to yourself. I'm inviting 10,000 of you

to come even deeper into the diary of a

CEO. Welcome to my inner circle. This is

a brand new private community that I'm

launching to the world. We have so many

incredible things that happen that you

are never shown. We have the briefs that

are on my iPad when I'm recording the

conversation. We have clips we've never

released. We have behindthe-scenes

conversations with the guests and also

the episodes that we've never ever

released. and so much more. In the

circle, you'll have direct access to me.

You can tell us what you want this show

to be, who you want us to interview, and

the types of conversations you would

love us to have. But remember, for now,

we're only inviting the first 10,000

people that join before it closes. So,

if you want to join our private closed

community, head to the link in the

description below or go to

daccircle.com. I will speak to you

there. This has always blown my mind a

little bit. 53% of you that listen to

this show regularly haven't yet

subscribed to the show. So, could I ask

you for a favor? If you like the show

and you like what we do here and you

want to support us, the free simple way

that you can do just that is by hitting

the subscribe button. And my commitment

to you is if you do that, then I'll do

everything in my power, me and my team,

to make sure that this show is better

for you every single week. We'll listen

to your feedback. We'll find the guests

that you want me to speak to and we'll

continue to do what we do. Thank you so

much. Heat. Heat.

[Music]

TLDR

Timeline

The drive behind Scooter Braun's early success and the creation of his persona

The baseball analogy and overcoming internal noise

His father's lesson on integrity and its impact

Early entrepreneurial ventures and their influence

The importance of relationships, respect, and hard work

The role of ignorance and a lack of limiting beliefs in signing early artists

Guilt and reflection on mental health challenges of young artists

The Taylor Swift incident as a gift and its lessons

The importance of self-awareness, self-work, and relationships

Anchoring oneself amidst transient praise and hate

Belief in reincarnation and its impact on perspective

Balancing competition and curiosity for personal fulfillment

Overcoming the fear to write a book

Daniel Ek's vision for saving the music industry

Audio Summary

Transcript

Detailed Summary