Joe Rogan Experience #2328 Luke Caverns - Youtupedia

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Rogan Experience. Train by day. Joe

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We're up. What's up? How are you, man?

How are you? It's great. Pleasure to

meet you. It's a pleasure to meet you as

well. I really enjoyed you on the Jesse

Michaels podcast, so I had to have you

on. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, man.

I love it when young people know so much

about ancient history. Like, how did you

get started in this? Um, well, it's it's

quite literally in my blood. Um, back in

the late well, I should say the 1890s.

Um, my family, they were cattle

rustlers. Uh, right here in the Hill

Country, actually, maybe a little bit

further quite quite a bit further west

of San Antonio. Damn. You come from a

lot of criminals, probably. Yeah. There

there's a there's a lot of there's a lot

of dark history in in here. Um and uh so

uh they are they're cattle rustlers that

are out in Dryden, Texas in Sanderson,

Texas. And uh I mean right on the Rio

Grand and they were uh that's how they

made their money. They were fascinated

kind of like everybody with uh with

finding gold with finding lost Spanish

treasure and and uh you know Native

American artifacts. So they're living in

this area called the Reagan Canyon. And

uh I I've seen it all over the place.

Um, if you look on I think like the

Smithsonian did something on the top 10

forgotten places in the United States,

it's like the most remote areas of of

our country. And somewhere in there is

Reagan Canyon. And uh, so out there they

developed this fascination for looking

for lost Spanish gold. And you know,

there were bandits that would hide up in

the hills and they would sack Spanish

caravans and drag the gold up into the

hills to not get caught to hopefully

come back for it later. And the the

Spanish are out there mining for gold

and everything. Uh, so my family gets

caught up in one of the biggest

mysteries of Texas history. Like if you

were to look up if you were to go to

some bookstore, there's there's a

popular one called The Sons of Coronado.

And it's like this legacy of people

looking for Spanish gold. Somewhere in

there, my family will will be in there.

And so this started in the 1890s. And um

there's it's this long saga of of uh the

gold being the treasure being dragged to

San Antonio and all these people get

killed and only one of these four Reagan

brothers makes it out. he gets involved

in uh in um uh oil drilling out in East

Texas. And then so my family moved out

to East Texas. And then his son was

born, which is my grandfather. And then

he continues this legacy of um of

continuing his father's oil company, but

then he also begins gold mining in New

Mexico. And while he's out in New

Mexico, he hears these legends of these

seven lost Spanish gold mines. And uh

because this local there was a local

police officer who was like a treasure

hunter and he knew who my grandfather

was and the story behind our family. He

sought him out and they went off looking

together and and I don't know how long

it took them to find it, but he found

the seven lost Spanish gold mines of New

Mexico and uh and he opened up this uh

company called Three Bells Mining and

Milling Company and that was open for

about 8 years and they opened up these

they opened up these mines that go back

to probably about the 1530s. So the

Spaniards were up all the way in New

Mexico in the 1530s and they were

opening up Native American gold mines

and expanding them. And so he found

these gold mines that go hundreds of

feet into the ground as this huge

expansive uh gold mining operation.

Well, somebody dies after a smelter

explodes and the company goes under.

They lose everything. My family falls

into poverty. My dad's born during that

time and my dad didn't really get to

experience like all of that excitement.

He had to spend his life climbing out of

poverty and uh but he had this love for

history. He had this uh he had this love

for for American history really and he

instilled in me the importance of

history growing up and that fascination

of of exploration and uh and kind of

ancient American history. hearing those

stories carried over into me during my

childhood and uh and so I've just I have

always been fascinated by this and um I

guess getting to where I am now. I was

halfway through my marketing degree in

college and I'm uh I'm sitting on my bed

in my dorm room with my girlfriend at

the time who I'm married to now and we

watched the movie The Lost City of Z

about Percy Faucet and something about

that guy's journey reminded me so much

of my family kind of reminded me of my

dad, reminded me of my grandpa and it

changed something in me like that day I

could not ignore I was probably 20 at

the time. I could not ignore this love

that I always had for ancient history

but you know archaeologists are poor.

you know, they're they're it's a

extremely hard life and it's really hard

on on your family, too. Um, and I just

knew I had to I had to create a life for

myself where I could do what I loved

because I had like a 1.7 GPA in college

and I was not going to to make it

through my classes. And so, I changed. I

got a degree in cultural anthropology.

Uh, I wrote like we had a mock thesis

statement and I wrote it on the Amazon

and the lost uh the lost civilizations

and you know how they were wiped out

from uh from uh Spanish influenza and um

yeah, so that's where I'm at today. Wow.

I I think everybody when you start

looking at the history of the human race

and you start looking at the history of

civilizations, everyone gets fascinated

because we kind of like woke

up in this life. you know, we didn't

choose to be born during this timeline.

We woke up in this timeline and we're

like, uh, how did collectively we get

here? And then you have this narrative

of how collectively got we got here. But

then you see there's holes in this

narrative and it's real weird. And then

you find out about asteroid impacts and

super volcanoes and then there's people

like Zahi Hawas who are in charge of

telling you what they know and this is

the only answer and you're like, well,

that guy's not right. And then you start

like looking at guys like Graham Hancock

like why is everybody calling him a

Nazi? Like what the [ __ ] And then you

start getting deep into the weeds in

this stuff and you're like, "Wow,

there's a lot of resentment from the

gatekeepers. There's a lot of people

that have been um they've been teaching

a narrative and teaching it in school

and they don't want anyone else teaching

this stuff. They want to be the only

people that can tell people what the

history of the human race is." And

unfortunately for them, there's too much

other evidence. It's too weird. The the

whole picture is not settled. It's too

strange. And they keep finding new

things all the time that throw a monkey

wrench into the gears of the timeline of

civilization. And so then, you know, you

you find out about Egypt. And once I I

mean, that was the big one for me. Once

I found out about Egypt or not found out

about it, but you like really started

exploring it. You post when you

discovered every grain of sand. I

discovered it all. I was there. I dug

the hole. Um when I uh

that went about as well as I thought it

would when you told me. I was hoping it

was going to go a little better.

Honestly, well, he had a great

opportunity to like win over the popular

audience and come in and make a really

good impression and he did exactly the

opposite of Well, I think there was a

bunch of problems there. ego being one

of them, but another one being a

language barrier. And then Yeah, I think

so. Also years of battle. Like if you're

in conflict with people about this very

thing that we're talking about for years

and years and years and these people

that you're in conflict with keep

winning. Yeah. You know, like I remember

there was an old documentary that was

narrated by Charlton H. He was the host

of it. I don't know if you ever saw it.

The Mysteries of the Sphinx.

Yes. I've seen it. I've seen it on

YouTube. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I believe it

was on television at the time. And um

one of the the things in that was they

were trying to talk about Robert Shock's

work with the water erosion around the

temple, the Sphinx. And there was this

very arrogant archaeologist. I don't

remember his name, but I never I

remember he had a smackable face. He was

just so arrogant. He's like, "Where is

the evidence of this civilization that

existed 10,000 years ago? Well, now we

have evidence like so like Gobecleyte

threw a giant monkey wrench into the

gears of this narrative and now they're

forced to reckon with this like Zahi

didn't even know what Gobecley was which

was yeah there was there was a lot there

was a lot of things that he wasn't

familiar with like Zeppy or the uh it's

it's either the Turin or the Turid Kings

list which talks about the pre-dynastic

like semi- mythological kings going back

you know tens of thousands of years. How

do you not know that? You know, how is

what is he the former head of the

Ministry of Antiquities and Culture? How

are you not familiar with this? Right.

Well, he just dismisses it but

aggressively. Yeah. Which is like

there's no way you know everything.

There's there's no way. And then it was

also the the data from the Italian

scientists that were studying this

tomography and this ability to look

underground with satellite radar and

also dismissing that. But then I brought

up a tempo Osiris. I'm like but they

looked into that like you could see it.

They have like they they they showed

where the chambers are. They it works.

But this was only 50 feet in the ground,

you know? Like okay. Well, how do you

know how work how deep that stuff goes?

If it works 50 feet, who's to say it

doesn't work two kilometers like they're

saying? Yeah. I was having a uh a

conversation with uh uh like my mentor,

Dr. Ed Barnhard. He's he's a friend of

uh Graham. He was he was one of Graham's

guest experts on uh season 2 of Ancient

Apocalypse when he went to the Maya

realm. He and I were talking this

morning and he was like he's like, you

know, it's become a battle of like who

has this right to talk about these

things? you know, does the fact that I

have a degree in anthropology, that's

what gives me the right to have more of

an opinion on somebody else. That's kind

of what it what it's become. And it's

like and it's like one side is accosting

the other over their fascinations and

their interests and the fact that

they're able to make a living from the

things that they're fascinated about and

talking about it. And uh and it feels

like academia has become bitter because

you know being in the academic world uh

is a very rough and jaded place and a

lot of young aspiring archaeologists who

existed who maybe would have had an

approach like me uh but existed during

this time where you could only have your

pursuits if the university signed off on

it. Right? But now universities are like

ideologically captured and every little

thing that you do has to be aligned with

the university. And so all of your

fascinating ideas that you have in your

mid20s, you know, to your mid-30s when

you're young and able to go off into the

jungle and find something, they all get

shut down by people who had their ideas

shut down. But now it's like it's the

wild west where you can have somebody uh

like me or whoever put together an

expedition and you know I legally cannot

start digging up the ground and

excavating things but I can go and

document things and survey things on my

own uh you know with local permission

whatever but um can you legally dig

things up in certain countries

if you get permission or is it oh well I

mean yeah if if I got if I got

permission but I mean you would be it

would be next to impossible for me for

somebody like me to do that. Why would

that be? What would be the hurdles? Oh,

well, you would have the local

universities there who also have their

own, you know, high credentialed people

who are going to, you know, if I don't

come in with a PhD, I'm never going to

go get a PhD. Uh, but if I don't come in

with something like that, then I don't

have the experience. I don't have, uh,

you know, the authority to be able to do

something like this and they would never

trust me to carry out like a good

excavation, right? Not damage anything.

Yeah. Yeah. So, they would never they

would never trust that. There's some

reasonable re some reasonable

explanations for why. Yeah. Yeah. Kind

of people have looted. I mean, who knows

how much of ancient Egypt is just gone.

I mean, who knows? Oh, man. So many

wealthy people actually ate mummies.

Yeah. You know, we know about that. They

actually, like, for people listening, I

did, you didn't mishar me. They ate

mummies. They would bring them to these

European aristocrats would bring them to

parties and people would consume the

mummies.

Yes. Which is just like

What were you guys drinking? Like Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's gnarly, man.

Diddy party where you guys have it over

there where that was the idea. It's It's

gnarly, man. Um Yeah. So much of Egypt

is is gone. And this is why I don't

think that uh you know like I love I

love the the mystery of the ancient

world and why I'm so baffled when people

want to immediately shut anything down

um because of the amount of history that

is lost to us is completely baffling.

You know, Egypt has been getting

looted. We know for the last uh let's

say 3,000 years at least, countries,

foreign nations have been coming in and

raiding Egypt and taking the artifacts

out. And so, you know, so much of the

artifact uh so much of the artifact

record is lost. And I think that the

real problem is the confidence with

which somebody like Zahi speaks. It's

okay for you to have your your

perspective and the way that you view

the ancient world based on the data

that's been available to you. It's okay

to have your opinions, but when you're

so confident about your opinions that

you then begin to chastise other people,

put them down for it, and then go the

next the next mile and start making

accusations of them being a racist and

things like that. The Flint Dibble

approach, that's really not good, right?

It's not good. But it's like that guy

embodies what you don't like about

academia. You see him physically, he

embodies it. Like it's like that's what

it is. It's these weak men, these weird

kind of [ __ ] weak men that decide that

they're in control of things. And the

way they shut people down is by casting

the worst peoratives on them. Especially

like the Graham Hancock stuff, calling

him a racist. Like what? Because he

because he's interested in Atlantis. I I

I really did not like the letter that

they wrote to Netflix to try to get

season one taken down of Ancient

Apocalypse. And you know, they uh

sometimes they'll rebuttal and say, "Oh,

well, you know, I never blatantly called

him a racist." Like, well, okay, even if

you didn't blatantly do it, you

insinuated it and you were okay with

insinuating it. And some of these people

exist in a realm where in their little

bubbles where they throw around the word

racist all the time. And then when they

get to the wider world where the rest of

us exist, they find out very quickly

that none of we don't throw that term

around lightly and accuse people of

these things. And then, you know, at the

end of the podcast, um, when he said,

uh, you asked, you know, things the kind

of temperature came down and then I

think maybe you asked something like,

uh, like, you know, well, what can

people do to to help archaeology? And he

was like, oh, you can donate to the SAA,

but the SAA is the one that wrote the

letter, right? It's like, oh man, that's

just uh it's it's uh it's not a good

look. Well, it's a real problem with

human beings um and ego when they have

uh positions of power and authority um

especially over something that is very

esoteric, something that is like and

also completely complex like when you're

dealing with trying to decipher

hieroglyphs and trying to and then you

know the fact that we know that the

library of Alexandria was burned down so

who knows what was lost in that. Several

different times like five different

times. God. Mhm. I wonder who if any of

that just got stolen out of there and

then they blamed it on like how much of

that Vatican. So the first time uh

Caesar is chasing his rival Pompy across

the Mediterranean and Pompy flees to

Alexandria and um Alexandria was kind of

in the basket of Rome. Uh they the the

Tomies who are the the Greek pharaohs in

in Egypt. So the Greeks are controlling

Egypt after Alexander comes in 332 BC.

So Alexander dies, his best friend Tommy

becomes Pharaoh. So uh but the Tollies

were very weak, not very good rulers.

And so Rome kind of does like what the

US does where they get pulled into

conflicts and then once they're there

and they conquer everything, they seize

all the power, you know, and so Rome had

done this to uh had done this to Egypt.

And so they controlled Egypt and they

were pulling all of their uh they were

keeping the tomies in power. Uh the

Roman soldiers were and they were

pulling all that grain into Egypt. And

so Caesar follows Pompy uh chases him to

to Alexandria and so that Caesar can't

or so that Pompy can't flee, Caesar

says, "We'll burn the docks." Well, when

you landed in Alexandria, uh you would

land at this dock that went to a road

called Soma Road. So you had Soma Road

and Canopic Way and it was like the

street corner. It must have been amazing

to see in real life. Like think about

this. You have the Library of

Alexandria. You all this is all in one

block. You have the Library of

Alexandria. You have the museon which is

right next to it. So both together they

make the world's first university and I

mean you can just imagine like walking

through those halls. Across the street

from that is uh Alexander's mausoleum.

So uh his mausoleum we think the emperor

Hrien if you've heard of Hrien before um

that he modeled his mausoleum on

Alexander. So we kind of have an idea of

like what the mausoleum may have looked

like and it would have a marble statue

of Alexander on top. So people are

walking by every day in the middle of

this town. And then across the street

from that is the palatial district where

all the rich people lived. And then off

by the bay, you would have had

Cleopatra's palace. And so it's this

beautiful place. But when the boats come

into the dock, you had to give up all

the scrolls that you had because the

tolamese are obsessed with obtaining the

world's knowledge. And they want the

originals. They don't want a copy. So

what they would tell people is you give

us your writings, we'll write down a

copy, and we'll give you back your

original. But what they would do is give

back the copy and keep the original. And

this is something called the library

wars. This is the whole thing. So, um,

but this was it was connected to the

docks and so most of the buildings in

Alexandria are made out of stone to

prevent fires. Um, but the interior of

Alexandria's library would have had all

these wooden shelves that will cross

where you'd stack all the scrolls in.

So, everything just maybe the actual

structure of the building doesn't burn

down, but the entire interior of it

burns up. And so, when uh when Caesar

sets fire to the docks to burn all of

Pompy's ships, it crawls up the docks

and burns the library down. Well, uh um

Augustus did the same thing. What a a

decade and a half later. Augustus came

and he seized Alexandria. And this is

where this is when Cleopatra and Mark

Anthony die. He seizes it. And then

there are rebellions because the

Alexandrians are very rebellious. They

don't want to be ruled by uh by the

Romans. And um so there's I think it's I

think it's

Kakala that uh he was being made fun of

by the Alexandrians. There was a theater

in town. It's actually the place where

standup comedy was invented uh in

Alexandria. Yeah. So, so really and the

butt of all the jokes was always the

Roman emperor. So, so you'd have people

like talking [ __ ] about the Roman

emperor standing up, you know, in the in

the middle of Alexandria's uh theater.

And so, the Roman emperor was always the

butt of the joke. Well, Caracala, I

believe it's Carakala, he's uh one of

the brothers in Gladiator 2, the uh the

new Gladiator, if you've seen it. I

haven't seen it. um he's he's one of the

brothers, but the movie doesn't really

depict the the actual emperors very

accurately. Um but he gets tired of it,

so he just comes down to Alexandria on

like a royal visit and executes 25,000

people in the city of Alexandria and

burns down parts of it. So he burned

down the library for the third time. And

then there was another emperor named

Aurelian uh when a local Alexandrian

declared himself the new Egyptian

pharaoh. I think he was a real Egyptian.

uh he Egypt he he declared himself like

the newest pharaoh and he he created

this revolt and then Aurelion had to

come and put the revolt down and he

burned down the library again. So this

is we're getting close to like 300 AD at

this point. Now in 365 AD there was a um

there was a a huge earthquake uh that

was off of the coast of Cree I think

which is the most southern uh Greek isle

and it's where the Manowans lived. I I

believe it's there or it's off the coast

of Cyprus. And so that earthquake like

like just uh reverberates down to Egypt

in this massive tsunami destroys the

entire city of Alexandria. And it said

it was so catastrophic that

um I think it's plenty of the elder or

plenty of the younger comes down in a

rescue mission from from Italy and he

comes to Alexandria and he records that

50,000 people in the city are missing

because of you know the the wave that

gets pushed in and that all of the giant

boats, these are giant giant gigantic

boats in Alexandria's harbor are sitting

on top of all the rooftops in the city.

And it's after this point that the

location of Alexander's body and the

location of Alexandria's library just

completely go missing. So, so they're

both utterly destroyed and most likely

all of the giant stones that were used

to build the city were repurposed for,

you know, other things. But, uh, in one

fatal swoop, uh, Alexandria's library,

the museum, and Alexander's mausoleum

completely disappear from the historical

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Wow. It just shows you how vulnerable

knowledge is. Mhm. I really think about

that today because

um obviously we have a lot of books and

most things that are like most physics

work, most work on archaeology, most

work on history is is available in book

form. But how much of what we have is on

hard drives. And if there was a power

outage, just a global worldwide powder

power outage that lasted six months,

we're [ __ ] like we we don't know

anything anymore. It's a small amount of

time for an enormous cataclysmic

disaster to completely erase tens of

thousands of years of understanding of

everything. Yeah. Everything. We we we

would have no knowledge. One generation

removed from electronics would have no

knowledge of how to recreate it. What

steps need to be taken? What what you

have to build a chip plant? Where where

are they right now? They're in Taiwan.

What the [ __ ] are you talking about? How

are we going to do this hard drives?

That's a precarious place for them to

be. Starting from scratch, starting from

scratch today would be very similar, I

think, to probably what starting from

scratch was post the great flood, post

the great comet impacts, all the younger

dest if there is if Graham's position

and Randall Carlson's position is that

there was probably a much more advanced

civilization than just hunter gatherers

that lived 10,000 plus years ago. How

many thousands of years would it take

before we started calming down again?

Well, it seems like it took about five

four or five,000 years before

civilization emerges. A really long

time. A really long time. I think about

that with like foraging, you know. I was

reading uh yesterday I was reading uh uh

exploration faucet. Have you ever read

this before? Listen to the audio book.

It it's his Percy Percy Faucets personal

diary. Yeah. So, you have uh you have

you can there's an audio book of that.

Yeah. Yeah. It's on Audible. Yeah. Uh

dude, you'll get wrapped up in it. You

won't be able to stop listening to it.

Um you know, he just has these amazing

experiences and Oh, man. He would be

like your best like your all-time guest,

you know, if you could have him on.

Sure. Um but I he had a great accent,

too. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And uh and so

you listen to his audio book and uh the

way he talks about meeting the

indigenous people that live deep in the

Amazon. You know, it would take him

weeks to get to these little villages.

And while he was out there, he would see

like the systematic mathematical

structure with which they would set up

these giant villages and how they would

build these huge like thatchwood uh

homes with foundations that are stones.

And these people were, he said that they

had like beautiful skin. They spoke

elegantly. They sang songs. And he was

like, he's like, he's like, "This

isn't," he's like, "These people in the

Amazon are not primitive savages like my

colleagues at the the uh Royal

Geographic Society in London believe

that they are these are people who are

the fallen or are are the descendants of

a fallen great civilization." He was

like, "The way they interact with each

other is so sophisticated and the way

they speak." I think it was they were

the descendants of a fallen civilization

and not the the people that were

currently living in uh the most modern

version of the civilization.

Um I I don't quite know. You know,

there's some things that are that are

left out like he has he has some before

he started writing this, I think he

always had these ideas in the back of

his mind and so you don't really get the

origin of why he initially started

thinking this. you know, while he's uh

exploring South America, he's hearing

all these stories of of, you know,

semi-contacted people. Like, you have

natives who still live the the native

life, but they can speak Spanish, and he

could speak a little bit of Spanish and

communicate with these people. So, he

would hear about, oh, yeah, you know,

there's this there's this huge city of

gold off, you know, off in the jungle,

uh, months traveled that way. And it's

the same kind of legend that all these

Spaniards had heard. So, it's this idea

of there's well, there was this

civilization that used to be out there.

And so, Percy thought that maybe it has

something to do with Atlantis. And so,

that was part of his journey looking for

it. And then he um it's actually his

wife Nina Faucet, I believe, when she's

in a library in England, she finds a

Portuguese document. I think it's

manuscript 512. Have you ever heard of

this? Um I could have the name of it

wrong, but I think it's manuscript 512.

And in that it's these guys who are kind

of like semi-professional uh Portuguese

explorers in the mid700s that are going

around Brazil and they find this huge

stone city with statues that they

thought looked like Greek gods in the

middle of the Amazon. And so you know

the perception like my perception

looking back through it is like well I

mean yeah these are Portuguese guys who

come from Europe. So when they see

something that's native, their only lens

to see it through is what they've grown

up knowing, which is the Greek and Roman

world. So that's how they communicate

this idea. But they found this big stone

city in the in the middle of uh I think

it's I'm pretty sure it's Brazil's

jungle. And so uh this was completely

forgotten until Percy's wife found this.

So um you know, when he first went down

to the Amazon, he was only there on a

mapping expedition on behalf of uh on

behalf of uh Great Britain, which was he

was probably a spy. I'm I'm guessing

that that's what was actually happening

there because he was a spy when he was

in the military. And I think what he was

doing is on an official basis, he's

charting uh the border around Brazil uh

uh with the Amazon River, but really

what he's doing is collecting

information so that maybe Great Britain

can have a colony there someday. But

then the war but then the war uh

disrupts all of that and he has to go

fight in World War I. Um which is funny

because it's the same thing the Nazis

were doing in the 1930s. But um anyways,

so while he's there on his first um

while he's there on his first

expedition, he doesn't initially I think

he's interested in these ideas of

ancient history, but it's when he's

there and he's off in the jungle, he's

finding all these artifacts on the

ground and he was like he's like uh you

know the way that the pottery there's

clay pottery and then there's uh you

know stone vessels and and like uh

eating utensils that he was finding

really ele elegant little statues and

things. Uh he found one that was made

out of this like solid black stone that

he could never and it had this glow to

it and he could never maybe not a glow

but like u like if you shine the light

on it you can tell that it's translucent

in a way. Uh I've seen stones like this

in the Aztec realm. They have these

scepters that have these orb things on

the top and if you shine a light on it

it's like this otherworldly looking

thing. I can only imagine if you're on

like peyote stone I I don't know. And

it's missing now. It's lost. uh it it it

went missing with him or somewhere in in

his expeditions that doesn't exist

anymore, but there's an illustration of

it in exploration faucet that you could

find. Um and so he thought like when he

was seeing all this on his first

expedition, he's like, "Wait, these

aren't these primitive savages that all

my colleagues that I don't even like

back home think that these people are.

This is a this is an advanced culture

there. There's something that's lost

here." And so Percy didn't know if it

was a fallen civilization that lived in

the Amazon or whether it was still out

there somewhere. and he was trying to

find either the ruins of it or the

living city, right? So, he didn't really

know if it was fallen or not. So, that's

it's still interesting that he would

think that way instead of this is the

pinnacle of civilization in the Amazon,

which is why they're so advanced. I'm

not sure. Is that like a preconceived

notion that he had that there was an

advanced civilization and that it had

fallen? Because if you're looking at the

way the people were living, the way he's

describing it, it sounds pretty

advanced. Sure. Sure. Why wouldn't you

assume that these people had lived for

thousands of years and eventually risen

to this current level? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I

I don't know. I don't know. I don't

That's the problem with preconceived

notions, too. But I do know that that he

had he had the utmost admiration and

respect for these people. He he was

completely infatuated with their way of

life and trying to you know what his

goal was was to prove that the um that

the like the narrow-minded perspective

of the English aristocrats who thought

that they were the pinnacle of

civilization. He was determined to prove

them wrong. And so he had a great

admiration for these people. Um, and he

wanted to try to find like a like a big

big civilization, something with enough

people that could rival um that could

rival Europe. And where he went missing

um was in the Mogo region of Brazil. And

um and the last place that they know

that he was at was on May 29th, 1925.

And he wrote a letter to his wife from

Dead Horse Camp. And he was like, "It

may be a while before you hear from me.

It could be up to a year or two before

you hear from me. I'm about to head into

a very dense area and my trail runners

who would, you know, go back and forth

with his notes, they weren't going to

follow him out there because it's too

dangerous. And um that was the last

letter that he had written. And he was

going he was heading off into what's

called the Zingu region uh which is uh

like the Zingu River and it's one of the

most hostile regions in the Amazon. Uh

maybe even maybe even today. Teddy

Roosevelt had trouble when when he went

there. Um, but the Zingu region is where

all of the major lidar came out within

the last 10 years of of they found all

the ruins of these giant cities. And

there's a city called Kiriguyu, I think.

And uh, it had an estimated um,

population of about a million people,

which is the size of Rome. Wow. And um,

you know, when you look at the LAR

images, you can't get a perspective of

how big they are. Uh, I I have access to

a LAR database of the entire United

States and I've mapped all kinds of uh

huge uncharted mound sites in Florida,

uh, all of the Southeast. I have

hundreds of sites marked and um, when

you first look at them on a map, you're

like, "Oh, okay." Like maybe that looks

like it's 50t long or something. No,

they'll be like 300 yards long, like

these giant raised platforms in the in

the middle of the forest here in the US.

And if I had access to LAR data like

that where I could measure it down in

the Amazon, some of these things are

miles long, like raised platforms are a

mile long and they have and they have

highways like um you know, maybe we

should pull up a uh just an image of a

LAR scan from the Amazon. Um but you

you'll see this uh central um city area.

You'll see step pyramids and raised

platforms. Maybe this is where people

lived or maybe this is where the market

was. And there will be a road that cuts

straight through it. And you can see the

road just goes off in the distance for

miles and miles and miles. And so what

they would do, here we go. Yeah, this is

um so this is one of these sites in um

this is one of these sites. I believe

this is in Brazil or maybe it's in

northeast Bolivia. And is all that area

covered completely with jungle right

now? Completely covered in jungle. Yeah.

So if you went out there, you wouldn't

see any of this. You may not realize

that you were standing on a mound. Like

you really got to train your eyes. Um,

you know, I put out this uh I filmed

this little series about a year and a

half ago called Jungle of Stone where I

was going through the jungles in Central

America and we charted uh this city that

had 16 pyramids in it. Uh, you know, we

were there all day long and we we

charted 16 pyramids and when I put it

out, I got all these comments are like,

"You're not doing anything but walking

on a bunch of hills." Because it's so

hard to see it. The jungle just claims

everything back. So it takes you really

have to sit with seeing these things in

person for a while before you start

recognizing oh that is a mound or that

is a pyramid that is a structure under

the jungle. And so Percy Faucet he where

where that LAR came out is one of the

places that he told his wife he didn't

share this publicly where where he

thought that the city was but it's it's

like bang on. He was he was exactly

correct about where he thought a city

would be and we don't know if he reached

it or not.

Wow. It's so interesting because how

long has liar been around for? I don't

know. And how long has it been used? I

mean, think about for how long people

had no idea that this existed because it

was completely covered with jungle. They

just assumed that if there was evidence

of a civilization, it would be pretty

obvious. Yeah. But it's not. And it

makes me wonder like as technology

increases in its potential like what

other new technologies will be

discovered that will allow you to

instead of like having this ambiguous

view of under the pyramids have like a

crystalclear like accurate dimension by

dimension almost like a 3D map. This

this century for sure this century is

going to be insane. It's going to be

insane. Like you're going to have

everyone scanning everything. Uh, all of

the Amazon will be mapped with LAR by

the end of the century. All of the

Sahara is going to be mapped with LAR by

the end of the century. The Sahara is a

big one. Yeah. Yeah. Well, those are my

two those are my two big things. Like

when we talk about Atlantis and we talk

about lost civilizations, I mean, my

thing is the Sahara and uh the Sahara

and the Amazon. You know, both of these

things existed pre ice age, especially

if we're talking about pre- ice age

civilization. The Sahara is is an oasis.

you know, 10,000 plus years ago. It's an

oasis. You have what, two or three of

the world's largest uh lake systems on

there. You have rivers everywhere. Uh

you know, it would have been like a

beautiful place to live, abundant

resources, so there's no worry about

food and shelter. You have plenty of

time to figure things out, which is the

thing that has always made sense to me.

If you know the history of the Nile

Valley and where Egypt was, like that

was a wonderful place to live to try to

figure things out, right? Because you

have so much food. Mhm. And once you

have so much food and you're kind of

separated from everybody, it's really

tough to get to you. So like they lived

unchallenged in that civilization for

thousands of years. Well, yeah, that

that's amazing. And you know whenever I

um you know so so growing up I mean gosh

I read Fingerprints of the Gods when I

was 16. I remember like sitting on the

couch after school and reading it and my

dad's like comes up to me he's like

that's a big book and I go I know it's

like I'm reading a textbook for fun you

know and it was uh it was it was dense

reading for me as a 16-year-old. And so,

you know, I I was so inspired by by

Graham and then I went off and like got

traditionally educated and um so I kind

of have both of these perspectives and

I'm of I'm often shocked and

disappointed at how other professional

archaeologists and anthropologists

explain popular mysteries, you know, um

like uh there was an Egyptologist on on

another popular podcast and and uh and

the podcast host asked him to uh

properly explain like you know the

mystery around the pyramid and it was

just so subpar. I was shocked and I was

like, I'm not even an Egyptologist. I

know how to explain these things. And I

felt the same way about Zahi. Maybe

there's some kind of language barrier

there. But it was also like he didn't

want to explain these things on a basic

level. But one of the things that I

never see talked about is the

concentration of energy along the the

the Nile Valley. like, okay, so you

know, if I had to if I had to put a drop

a pin anywhere on the earth where I

think Atlantis would be, um, I would

probably put it like in the Sahara

somewhere, you know, along one of these

major lakes where there's a lot of

people living at one time. And then

later on, as the Sahara dries up, you

know, say beginning around like 800, I'm

sorry, 8,000 BC, it starts rapidly

drying up. It's probably a little bit

before that. And then by about 4,000 BC,

it's completely dry. So your Saharans

only have a few places that they can go.

They can go to the Mediterranean coast.

They can go to the Atlantic coast. They

can go down kind of into the Congo and

in the in the savas or they can go to

this fertile valley oasis where it's

like 500 yards on each side where it's

just completely lush tropical oasis. And

so some people went there. And so you

have this hyperconentration of energy

and all these people living somewhere

together for what we know is the first

time in history, like we can verify it,

I guess, if that makes sense. And um and

so rather than being able to have these

huge pieces of property where they can

all live separated from each other, kind

of like in the Sahara, you have all this

space and so luxurious, now you have to

live on top of each other and you have

to build up these cities. You know,

you're like building cities. And so all

that energy compacted into one place in

this fertile oasis is either destined to

completely crumble and fall apart or

it's New York City. It's this thin strip

of highly concentrated genius,

hardworking people figuring out how to

extrapolate the most out of their

natural world and create some of the

greatest things the world has ever seen.

just like New York City, we did it, you

know, and um I've never seen any

Egyptologist explain things that way.

Like I think that's I think that's a

good explanation at least. And I'm open

to things in Egypt being much older.

Like the Sphinx is definitely older than

the pyramids. Um but uh I'm just always

disappointed at like the very low level

with which um archaeologists and

anthropologists will come in and try to

explain things to a popular audience.

And it's kind of like you asking, okay,

but how do you know that? like explain

that to me in a way that I can

understand. How do you know this? And

there's never a proper explanation. And

I don't know what that is. It's like

it's like

they strongly dislike the fact that

there's mystery out there and that there

are other people who are attempting to

answer the mystery that are not part of

the good boys club, you know. So, they

have this so they have this knee-jerk

reaction to it all. They hate all of it.

They don't want to be a part of all of

it. And um that's not going to work

going forward. like um you know, not to

be political, but this uh but this

recent election showed that uh you're

going to have to appeal to the popular

audience in the future. Everyone is, you

know. Yeah. And especially when there's

these forums now like YouTube where

someone like you can put up videos

explaining things or Jimmy Corsetti or

Graham Hancock like the the access to

people to share fascinating ideas. It's

not limited to universities anymore. And

I think that drives them crazy because

they spent so much time being in control

and then all a sudden it's just like

and then through a lot of these

appearances like Flint Dibble and Zahi

their credibility erodess publicly in

front of everyone's eyes and then you

know there's people that are going to

support both of them on either side and

who knows how much of it is even real

because now we have AI bots and that

that get turned loose by whether it's uh

universities like the University Zurich

that just got in trouble for running

that experiment with social media, which

is really wild. Yeah. So, we don't even

know like how much of it is organic

until you see some something like voting

and then you go, "Oh, well, this is how

people really feel." But how much of

that has even been influenced by all

these AI campaigns, but we do know that

human arrogance has always been a real

problem. And the same thing that Percy

Foster was probably dealing with or

Percy Foster rather was probably dealing

with when he was, you know, the the

people back home that thought these

people were primitive. Yeah. It's like

this arrogance that human beings looking

down their nose at everybody. People

love to be experts. They love to be

experts and they love to and they also

equate their own self-worth with being

accurate about information that you

really can't be accurate about. Exactly.

Exactly. instead of just being humble

but yet knowledgeable, which is a great

position, you know, and when you talk to

someone and they're humble and

knowledgeable, that's a those are my

favorite conversations because they

they'll tell you what they know and what

they don't know and this is why. Yeah.

Archaeologists are not doing that, which

is why they're rejecting people like

Graham Hancock. What they should be

doing is embracing the work that he's

doing because because he's self-funded.

Yeah. And because he's just selling

books and, you know, and doing his thing

and appearing on podcasts and developing

this audience, he's allowed to do all

these fantastic voyages. Like he's in

Iraq right now, like studying the

ancient Samrian civilization like with

the remnants of it. Yeah. Well, there's

uh there's two things I I'll say there.

Um, you know, kind of like I guess a

running theme of this is is we're about

to enter into like archaeological wild

west in a way, you know. Um, I think

that, you know, uh, Jimmy getting

involved with the with Gobeckley and and

the trees that were there, having the

trees, the orchards planted over the

sites, and they're removing them now.

Yeah. And and it's just it's just proof

that a guy like I started watching Jimmy

2018. I mean, gosh, was I I just

graduated from high school. And um and

so he was kind of uh like inspired me to

be like, you know, he was this young,

charismatic guy that could go online and

and research topics and and

enthusiastically present these topics

and and uh and he was effective at doing

it and inspired me for a long time. And

uh and you know, lo and behold, I guess

what, six, seven years later, he's still

at it. And he's actually not just

inspired people to be interested in the

ancient world, but but had an actual

effect on something on the opposite side

of the planet. Like when all this

happened, I was like I was like I was

like, "Yeah, I mean, I get the concern,

but I don't think the Turkish government

cares what any of us over here in the US

think." Sure enough, they removed the

trees. And then there's kind of like the

backpedaling of of, "Oh, well, it was

always in the plan to remove the trees."

But I I think it's I think, you know,

people might disagree with Jimmy's

approach, whatever. But um but it's you

can't deny the fact that he himself an

independent guy uh was able to make so

much noise that he affected a government

on the opposite side of the planet, you

know, and it uh and and in a way it's

like uh it shows me like, oh, you know,

these these expeditions that that I'm

planning and things that I'm going to go

out and survey and document for myself

like these can make these can make real

changes and these are things I have

planned in Florida, here in the here in

the southeast, in the States, um in

Central America, and in Amazon and it's

like encouraging like wow I mean we're

really approaching a time when

independent people are going to start

making real noticeable differences and

not just in the digital space that where

people are interested in right but in

the physical archaeology. Exactly.

Exactly. Yeah. Jimmy's so meticulous too

like he's such a good representative

because he's really intelligent, really

thoughtprovoking but also really honest

about what he knows and what he doesn't

know. And he has counterarguments to his

own points. He'll taste tell you

something and then but also it could be

this and this is what we know. And

because he's been really careful in the

way he expresses himself, he's

established this community that

understands what he does and they trust

him and they go, "No, no, no. He's going

to tell you the truth. He's going to

tell you what we know and why we know

it. He's not going to make any weird

ideological leaps. He's not going to

make any weird judgments. He's just

gonna lay out what is fascinating about

these things. And because of that,

whether he has a degree or not a degree

degree, that guy's having a massive

impact. I mean, I don't know how many

What does Brighteny What does Bright

Insights YouTube channel have for

subscribers? And it's, by the way, if

you haven't watched any of his videos,

can't recommend them enough. Love the

guy. Love the stuff. 1.7 1.7. By the

way, he's been called a Nazi, which

Yeah. which is uh that's just that's

what they use. That's the these are the

terms, you know, he's been called all

all sorts of terrible things. None of

them are true. He's a wonderful guy. and

just a a man who's deeply fascinated

with these mysteries and when he's

pointing out the things that we cannot

it's Balbeck and Lebanon the trillion

what they call the trillion stones

trillthon trillston what whatever

there's certain things that you can

point out that people go okay what the

[ __ ] like he gets to the what the [ __ ]

stuff where everybody's like okay what

else you got you know like how come I

didn't know this how come this isn't

like something like when you're talking

about ancient history the history of u

whether it's Lebanon or Egypt and when

they start talking about these things

and they lay out the the histories of

the pharaohs and why aren't you talking

about the distance they carried these

[ __ ] enormous 80 ton rocks through

the mountains and how they cut them like

why that's the mystery this is the big

piece of evidence that these guys just

want to dismiss oh s it was the national

object, you know, like, okay, yeah, but

that doesn't say how you did that 5,000

years ago. You need to help me out here.

And when these openings exist and guys

like Jimmy run through them, but

meticulously document things and talk

about them with humility and talk about

them with a a general understanding of

the absolute undeniable facts and then

it creates this enormous audience. And

then because of that enormous audience,

he has a huge impact. Yeah. On actual

archaeology. And that's why they hate

him. It's just cuz he's doing their job

better than they're doing their job

because he's not trapped. He's not stuck

in this

compartmentalized ideological position

of working for a university. Yeah. And

he doesn't have to worry about funding

and he doesn't have to worry about, you

know, being chastised by his peers

because they're all a bunch of [ __ ]

He doesn't have to worry about that. So,

he's free. And there's a bunch of those

guys that are emerging now. and guys

like yourself. And I think that's really

important because the gatekeepers have

been wrong every step of the way with

almost everything, whether it's medical

science, whether it's health and

nutrition, whatever it is. Like we

they've been wrong every damn step of

the way. So maybe open it up. Just like

the internet opened up information to

everybody, we need to open up the

exploration of information to everybody

and not have it contained with a few

people that have degrees from places

that we know are ideologically captured.

We can see how they behave. We can see

the things they say and the way they do

things and the way they act and the way

even the way they affect enrollment

based on race and gender and sexual

preference. Like you guys are [ __ ]

crazy. This is not how you're supposed

to handle knowledge and information.

This is a dumb approach. And we see that

through basically every place where

there's a few group of people, this

isolated, insulated group of people that

has the

ultimate influence over whatever

particular field of study is their

specialty. It's just a danger that the

human ego and the human mind fall prey

to almost every single time the internet

what it's done is it's like this great

equalizer and it's just it it has

allowed people to have these disc and

you hear a lot of people saying you

shouldn't do this, you shouldn't be

doing this, don't do your own research

and don't like those are stupid sayings.

Like you can't think like that. you

there's going to be people that say

things that are absolutely ludicrous and

you have to be able to listen to them

and then listen to people that are more

intelligent and and and more rational

and also objective and go that that guy

is that's what I'm interested in and I

mean I'm interested in this guy. I know

he's not going to lie, you know, and

there's too many instances of

archaeologists just lying lying and

attacking each other when one of them

like clothes first like that. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, attacking each other. I

mean, I I just experienced this the

other day. Um, you know, so I had a

uh I guess being early on in my career,

I'm passionate about so many different

things and I'm the kind of person that's

like, "Oh, I'm passionate about this.

This is what I'm going to do." And so I

uh I applied to the University of Athens

and Greece and I I I was really into the

classics and and I was going to go for

that. And then I I just had this uh

let's just say I was in the jungle and I

had a a mindopening experience and I was

reminded of the fact that uh my purpose

here the reason I started doing all this

was continuing kind of like my family's

legacy and I'm interested in a lot of

different things and I'm not I'm not

going to specialize. I'm not going to

like hunker down in this academic path

or whatever. And so I I just decided I'm

not going to go go through with this. So

I start um you know publishing uh you

know content and my research on the

Americas again and uh and the Americas

are very mysterious. It's uh I mean very

comparable to Egypt with just the amount

of questions that haven't been answered

is insane. And uh the ch world is

fascinating. And so, you know, there's

um uh you know, Graham in uh in

Fingerprints of the Gods, he talks about

how the the uh themes, he thought that

they may have like like uh like African

features. And of course, that was 1995.

And so, uh, I don't know, 2015, you guys

are talking and and he's like, he's

like, "Well, you know, I published that

then, but DNA research has come out that

says that these people don't have

African DNA in them and that maybe this

is Polynesian, maybe this is

Australasian people intermixing, and

that's why they have this unique look,

whatever." But in the mech world,

there's this monument that is actually

called El Negro, and you look at it, and

it's not an Ech, it is an African man.

And um and so I post about this on on my

ex account and I just kind of like list

everything I've seen in the mech world

and I'm like I'm like you know this is

really fascinating. Maybe this is

evidence of Africans who were in um who

were in the Mech world. And I hadn't

seen this monument before I saw it in

person because you go in the Mech in the

Mech realm in uh or the region in Mexico

and you go to these museums and you look

at the the the log or the ledger people

have been on and nobody nobody has

visited this museum in the last four

months and before that it was you know 6

months before that and these monuments

just kind of sit underneath these uh

metal roofs uh you know to protect them

from the rain and it's like this just

this completely lost civilization. Is

there an image of this that's available

online? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh there

we go. There we go. So if you pull up

anch head, you'll see that these guys

are very different looking and

especially if you can get Yeah. Yeah.

There we go.

Um look at uh Okay. So that's uh Yeah.

Okay. So that's a regular Mech head. So

you can see that these are two different

races of people. Um you know the themes

have very soft features. Round faces,

big eyes, big lips, kind of big noses.

They have very soft features. And this

El Negro monument has these high

cheekbones, this defined jawline, uh

this intense, but isn't there a lot of

variety just in like let's just say

Italians. There's a lot of variety. So,

couldn't this just be someone who's on a

a spectrum of features that I mean, I

don't think it's that much different

than the No, when I'm looking at it, I

could I mean, I could imagine like

there's like I said, just you know, my

nationality, Italian, so there's

Italians with very thin faces and

there's these big thick ones and like

people vary quite a bit. There's enough

similarities that I could say, "Oh,

those could be the same people." Well,

the the only counter I give to that is

when you when you visit the Mech realm,

you see a lot more than just the heads.

You see a lot of Mech faces. Dozens and

dozens and dozens of them. Maybe well

over a hundred. And when you've seen

them all and you kind of get a gist of

like the way they generally look, this

guy will really stand out. Like I I took

a like a group of students there and we

all as soon as we all came in and saw it

based on everything we'd been seeing for

the past week, it immediately stood out

to us. Well, certainly the thick brow is

unique to the all the all are wearing

helmets and that that that hair as well.

It's it's kind of that it's kind of that

that curly hair and uh or at least it

looks like it to me. And so um so

anyways, you know, he he could be I I

don't you know, my identity is not tied

up in what I think this is or also could

be African like very very clearly like

that one on the left easily could be an

African man. Which one? This guy right

here. This one, the one next to the

white one to the left to that to the

Yeah, right there. It easily could be an

African man. It certainly does look that

way, but uh I was on a I was on a plane

to Mexico a couple months ago and I was

going into the mech realm and I look I

was like I wanted to take a picture of

this guy. I'm looked to the left of me

and he was anch man sitting next to me

and he was he was you know he looked

like he didn't look like any Mexican

I've ever seen. There's something there

with the DNA of the ch people that is

definitely connected with something else

that that you don't see if you go to the

Maya realm that you don't see if you go

to like Mexico City. They have something

in their DNA. They have this very

specific look about them and I don't

know exactly what it is, but I'm like

looking and I'm like this is an old guy

next to me. So fascinating because it

clearly could have been African

explorers that made it. Yeah. Well, I'll

tell you what. Um, could we look up um

uh gosh, look up the traveler monument

if you would please, Jamie. Um, he it's

the traveler. I I want to call him I

think he's monument 13. There's another

one called monument 19 that we should

look at. But he's this man that's very

clearly not uh there we go. Uh top left,

the one that's on Reddit. In fact, this

might be my post on Reddit. Yes. Yes,

sir. So, this guy right here. All right.

So, this is really really fascinating.

So let's diagnose this. All right. So

flags flags are invented is very unknown

fact. Flags are invented or the first

place that we have evidence for it is

along the Nile Valley um on these

pre-dynastic pots uh which not the not

the stone vases um but just like clay

pottery. They would make little

paintings on them and people had these

river boats that have these flags on

them and the flags would say what city

you had come from or what village you

had come from. And so that so flags are

an oldworld thing. We don't have any

evidence of flags in the New World. All

right. He's also wearing a turban. He's

got this big turban that's draping off

the back of his head. And he very

clearly has this distinct beard that's

popping out. Now, Native Americans

sometimes they can, you know, they are

uh they're Asiatic. They have they have

Asian DNA and um and Asians don't really

grow typically. Sometimes they'll grow

the little like uh stash and a little

bit of a beard here, but they don't have

that big thick beard that you would see,

you know, like in Europe or along the

Mediterranean in the Middle East. And so

this guy has this big thick beard and

then he's got boots on his feet as well.

And we think that these are re these uh

glyphs that you see to his left and

right. And these are really really early

uh glyphs. And they interpret that foot

to the left as saying that he came from

somewhere. He was a traveler. And so,

um, the thought here is, so this is this

is around 900 BC, give or take a little

bit. They don't really, they really have

no idea when these when these are made.

Like, you go to all the monuments and it

says made somewhere between 1500 BC and

400 BC. And they they'll say 1500 BC and

400 BC. And so, they they really are

uncertain about how old a lot of these

monuments are. Make it big again, Jamie,

please. But if we if we shoot for dead

center 900 BC, the uh the Phoenetians

out of the Mediterranean are launching

these sailing expeditions around the

coast of Africa. These are the ancient

world's greatest sailors that we know

of. And um and so there are there were

like experimental uh archaeological or

scientific I don't know uh expeditions

done that show if you would send one of

these uh early Iron Age boats or if you

send any ship out of the uh out of the

uh the gates of Hercules or the straight

of Gibralar and you send it out into the

Atlantic just and it it drifts just a

little bit too far without turning south

along the African coast, it will carried

by a current across the Atlantic Ocean

down into the Bahamas, the Caribbean,

and straight into the Gulf of Mexico.

And if that had happened, if people who

had looked like they're in the old

world, like this guy, if that had

happened, somebody from the old world,

the the largest civilization at the

time, the empire in this area would have

been themes. And the the reason I feel

so strongly about that is because we do

not have flags, turbans, or boots in the

in the ancient Americas. This guy looks

nothing like a Native American. And the

flag, turban, and boots are all oldworld

uh features. You know what's fascinating

to me, too? The image on the lower right

of the bird's head looks very similar to

the carvings on golette,

doesn't it? Doesn't it? Very the curve

of the beak. That's not how birds beaks

look like. That's that's a very distinct

style of artwork. Well, and it's you can

find the images of the birds from

Gobecley. It's this uh it's this raised

relief art style. So people talk about

it a lot with with Gobecleyte. I mean

think about this. This is this is 11,600

years ago. And you have you have

artisans and stonemasons who have been

practicing for so long that now they're

able to take a blank piece of stone and

carve the face off to reveal the artwork

from underneath it. Not carve the

artwork into the stone, but carve the

stone away and reveal this sculpture

from underneath. How similar does that

look? It's bizarre, right? Real similar.

And so it's the it's the exact same kind

of art style that you see in the realm.

Exactly. The 3D stone carvings. Instead

of carving it directly into the stone,

carve the stone around it. They're both

doing the same thing. It takes a lot of

time. I mean, how a lot more effort can

you imagine? Weird weird stuff. It's

also like the idea that this is

documenting time that you know the the

the the handbags or whatever those

things are. or what it what it actually

is is the sun going over the earth. You

know, uh I have I'm I'm writing a paper

about this. Um but this might be a good

place to talk about it. Um so, you know,

the the handbag mystery is is very

fascinating. We have them in Assyria. We

have them um uh

Mesopotamia. Um I as far as I know, I

don't think one's been found in Egypt.

You can you can see them on the top of

those teaars in Gobeclet. And there's

one in the Olme realm. Are you familiar

with this? No. Uh, Monument 19, if if we

could look that up. It I mean, dude, it

it I think it's the coolest handbag. And

when I saw it in person, I like jumped.

Uh, I I've been waiting years to see it.

The same thing. Mech Monument 19. So,

this guy, he's wrapped in uh he's he's

sitting in Ket. He's sitting in Ketzel

Coat. If you could you do the one at the

top left where we get the full picture.

There we go. So, this stone is probably

about this big. It's probably about this

big. And it sits on a table like this.

Um, so he's sitting inside the feathered

serpent, Kettzel Coat. Um, and so he's

sitting inside the feathered serpent and

he's holding this handbag and I'm not

sure. So he has this uh, and if you can

if you see he has a feathered serpent

mask around his head as well. I'm not

sure what exactly is above him there.

Well, they're actually two um, it's

really hard to to make it out, but

what's above him, that little box

looking thing, is some kind of box

that's being held up by two birds on

each end. But the the important thing

here is the fact that this is the first

depiction of the feathered serpent in

all of Meso America that we know of. And

it's uh it might be the oldest handbag

known as far as like what we have

official dates for. And so the idea here

is that he's some kind of sacred shaman,

bringer of enlightenment, bringer of

knowledge, something like that. And so I

had been on the hunt for another

handbag. Everywhere I go, I'm always

looking for a handbag. I was in Cambodia

a couple weeks ago. I'm going around the

temples of Anorat and there's

hieroglyphs and and uh and uh carvings

all over the walls. I'm looking for a

handbag. I can't find one. But when I

was in um when I was in central Mexico,

I was at a site called Kakashla and I

found another handbag person. I've never

like officially published it. It's on my

ex if you'd want to look it up. What is

the timeline for that one? They don't

really know. When you look at the

monument, it says uh it says anywhere

from 1400 BC to 400 BC. That's just what

they think. I mean, the ch realm is so

uncertain and um and we don't have hard

dates for almost for almost anything.

They appear on the historical on this

historical timeline as a fullyfledged

civilization capable of creating what

you're seeing from the very beginning.

just like so many civilizations. It's

like as soon as they arrive on, you

know, as soon as they arrive in the

world, they're doing everything to the

fullest capacity. And uh we don't have

any evidence in the Mech realm of them

working their way towards being able to

do things like this. It's just from the

very beginning they're able to make

monuments like this, move these 50 ton

heads. The largest head is uh this,

you'll find this interesting. Um, so

there was a nautical engineer that uh,

Mech, which is an organization I'm I'm

with. It's the Maya Exploration Center.

It's it's run by Dr. Barnhart. I'm I'm a

a member of it. And, uh, and one of the

guys that worked with us, uh, traveled

into the chrome, and he he's a nautical

engineer. He's fascinated with, um, he's

fascinated with how were the ch moving

these huge heads up and down these

rivers. So, they live in like the

rivers, swamps, they have to cross some

mountain ranges. How are you getting

these heads 90 miles away from the

Sierra de Latushla volcanic belt? That's

where they're pulling the basaltt from.

Cuz we found unfinished heads like at

the base of these big basalt quaries.

And they're transporting them 90

kilometers away through, you know, like

I was saying, rivers and 90 miles or

kilometers. I think it's kilometers.

It's kilometers as the crow flies, I'm

pretty sure. And uh so much further when

you're actually dealing with the

complications of the terrain. And um and

so um he was fascinated like okay how do

they get them to the river and and and

then when how do they get them on the

boat and when it's on the boat how does

how exactly does this work if they're

transporting it by boat and kind of the

same mystery in Egypt too right like how

how do the nuances of these things work

so he devised this algorithm or whatever

where you could put in the hypothetical

size of your ch raft and put in the

hypothetical size of anch head into this

uh database or whatever

And when you made a raft that was too

big to go down the narrow stretches of

the Coat Calcos River, which is like the

X Nile River, when the raft was too big

and too wide to actually go down the

river, and you put a five ton head on

it, it would sink that raft, but the

smallest mech head is six tons and the

largest one is 52 tons. So, how are they

how are they doing it? And this is

something that like all archaeologists

have quietly known. This idea of they're

just being transported on these simple

balsa rafts must be wrong. It's, you

know, it's it's unexplained. How how are

these things being done? And I I just

find this realm really fascinating. Wow.

It is f. And then when do they even know

what language they spoke? The we we

don't know what language they spoke. We

don't even know what they called

themselves. The only reason we call them

the Mex is because Cortez in 1519 to

1521, he's moving through Mexico to

conquer Tanoshitan, the Aztec capital.

Uh during this time, you have these

Spanish chronicers that are taking in

information, you know, at taking in

information, but not at the rate that

everything's being destroyed. You know,

all these people are dying from this

disease and influenza.

And there's a record of what the people

who lived in the mech region are called

at that time in 15 uh 1520 let's say and

the Aztecs called them the ch in their

language naaddle and those ch pe the the

name means the rubber people or the

people of the land of rubber they

produced rubber and that's how the mech

were so rich so early on in time but

these were not the people living in 1519

are not the mech there has already the

fallen and there are other c cultures

that have risen and fallen in this same

region as well. The ch are far far far

into the distant

past. The Aztecs maybe didn't even know

who the were. Whoa. You know, you know,

uh so are you familiar with Teayotan?

Yeah. The, you know, the the ma the

three massive Well, you have the temple

of the sun, the temple of the moon, and

then the temple of Ketako. And they form

this kind of like uh Orion's belt

alignment similar to Giza. Well, you

know, when the Aztecs arrived in Mexico,

Teayot Tibukan had been abandoned for

almost a thousand years, we think. So,

when they arrived, Teayotan is already

gone. We don't even know the name of

Teayot Wakan. We don't know the name of

the people. We don't know the name of

the city. Um, now we know their

relationship with other people around

them. Like, the Maya were at war with

Teayoti Wakan, but the civilization had

already fallen. So when the Aztecs

arrived, the Mex had been gone

for almost 2,000 years at least. The

meme had already been gone. Teotacon had

been gone for thousand years. Uh the

Maya had already collapsed. The the Maya

collapsed long before the Spanish got

there. Um and so, you know, it's just

again like like the the Americas are

just so mysterious and there's so much

to know there. And so, kind of getting

back to what I was saying is when I um

when I talk about the mysteries of the

Americas, I immediately get accosted by

other of my quote unquote colleagues. I

don't have any colleagues in the

academic realm, but uh you know, other

academics who will like immediately jump

in my comment section on X or whatever

and they'll reprimand me and they'll be

like, "Oh, so back to the

pseudoarchchaeology, is it?" And I'm

like, "So, so I can't talk about

anything that's fascinating. I need to

talk about things that are boring so you

don't get upset with me. And now it's

just like uh the the the popular

audience has completely had enough of

it. And I'll have like 15 people jump in

and you know defend me and and be like

fun to watch. Yeah. And they'll be like

and they'll be like like they'll be

like, you know, okay, this is a perfect

representation of what you guys do. I

step just slightly out of this line or

what you think is appropriate for me.

And I'm talking about things that are

interesting that inspire people to be

interested in the ancient world to go

see these sites. Like these people, they

don't like you. They don't like the

people that you have on. But how many

people do you think you've sent to

Egypt? You know, like you had a

significant impact, this show had a

significant impact on me being

interested in the ancient world and I

have traveled all over the world, you

know, because largely, you know, some of

this show inspired me to do that. And um

and I'm probably one of the few people

that found you because of Graham

Hancock. That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah.

Rather than the other way around and um

and so you know I've traveled all over

the world and then what I have done is

inspired other people to travel around

the world. So you know how many of these

archaeologists that are keyboard

warriors hiding hiding behind you know a

a a desk or whatever. How many of these

people are inspiring people to travel

around the world? and and you know, it's

just it's just again, we're about to

reach this like archaeological wild west

where I don't really know what's going

to happen in the future. It's you're

always going to have people that are

threatened by an emerging new thing and

they're they're going to attack it.

Like, you know, famously in this world,

Howard Stern used to attack podcasts as

being useless. Oh, really? Like, why are

you wasting your time? You know, get a

radio show, figure out how to do it.

This is the beginning, the early days.

You know, obviously you can't do that

anymore, but I think the same thing is

happening with ar with archaeologists

because

Flint Dibble's own university that has

an archaeology program. They're cutting

the archaeology program. I saw that.

Yeah. Which is this is why like you're

in this like survival mode, this famine

mode. And fam, it's terrible. But famine

thinking is always very dangerous. Um,

you you see it with people that don't

want other people to be successful. It

it exists in the comedy world. There's

famine thinking. When other people start

doing better, they start attacking those

people. They never attack people that

aren't doing as well as them. It's just

a natural human instinct, unfortunately.

And it's a natural human instinct from

people with poor character. And I think

that these academic institutes, they

reinforce poor character and they they

actually encourage it. poor character

and the this

like labeling people in the worst

possible light in order to make your

point which is like ad hominemm attacks

are always a sign that your argument

sucks. Everybody knows that if you

really understand debating and you

really understand like the actual impact

that these kind of conversations have on

people the objective person on the

outside looking at it. They see someone

attacking someone calling them all these

name unfounded and they go oh that guy's

argument probably sucks like

instantaneously. So they're destroying

themselves while they're doing this. But

this is you'll see this in every walk of

life. You'll see this in everything.

It's just a human thing when they don't

want to work as hard as other people or

they don't have the young fire like you

have. Like there's a thing that people

have when they're very curious and young

and they don't have maybe a lot of

responsibilities or bills or problems

and they can just they can devote their

energy to this pursuit. that terrifies

people that have been kind of like

halfassing it for a long time.

Halfassing it and hiding behind these

these, you know, certificates on their

wall that show that they're the these

are the the gatekeepers of information.

Yeah. You know, it's like it's not going

to work anymore. Doesn't work anymore

with podcasts. It's not going to work

anymore with your kind of work and

archaeology. It's not going to work

anymore with UFO disclosure. It's not

going to work anymore with any of this

stuff. Like people are way more

interested in getting to the bottom of

things and they don't trust institutions

anymore. Yeah. Yeah. And um and the

institutions are are feeling the

pressure of independent media, you know,

um like going back to the Golette tree

situation. It'll be really interesting

to see, you know, like like Jimmy's in

an interesting position where where and

maybe there's maybe there's a way that

like the relationship between

independent people and the popular

enthusiastic audience and you know the

archaeological departments in in Turkey

can have a better relationship because

of these things in the future. Yeah. You

know how that would work? People like

you become the head of an archaeology

department. That's this is really the

only way it's going to work. Yeah, it's

like it's almost like the these

institutions have to feel so much

pressure and so much disgust from the

general public that they start

incorporating new people into it. You

know, sort of like CNN is trying to hire

objective journalists now. Oh yeah. Like

we got to get rid of Don Lemon and Brian

Stelter. Oh, actually he's back. But

they so they they try to course correct

because that's the only way to survive

because it's not working. what you're

doing is not worth it. From from what I

can see in the limited amount that I see

and this this is the hard part is is

sort of we get a skewed view into the

archaeological world or the academic

world and and sometimes I don't even

know what's what because because the

archaeologists that make their opinions

known are usually the ones with really

bad opinions, you know, and uh and then

all the other people that are pretty

agreeable, they just kind of sit on the

sideline, right? And it's hard to know

like what are most people what are most

of these these future archaeologists

where are they think where are their

where's their mind at and some of the

young people I talked to they are

fascinated by Graham Hancock they may

not agree with you know like they I

guess in a way I could say is they may

love the first nine episodes of ancient

apocalypse but in the 10th episode where

Graham gives his the end of his thesis

they'll be like okay I see the evidence

differently but this is really

fascinating and some of the mysteries

you pointed out along the way are valid

like you know the idea of of well, you

know, the the artifact record of the

tools that we have that the Egyptians in

the Old Kingdom were using does not fit

the megalithic architecture that they

then produced. Okay, what's the answer

to this mystery? Could it have been that

we're missing a chapter uh of of history

that's before that where a different

civilization did it? Or is there uh for

some reason there's an artifact record

that's lost to us today? And so you

have, you know, guys like Graham who

will come in and posit, well, there

could have been a lost civilization that

that did this. And then an

archaeologist, a young archaeologist may

disagree with the lost civilization, but

they say, "But Graham, you really

pointed out the fact and made it well

known that, you know, the artifact

record that we have of how they built

the pyramids. That's a big mystery. And

how they built the pyramids, that's a

big mystery. This is worth considering."

And they like Graham, you know. So, a

lot of young archaeologists, at least I

say a lot, it's really just the ones I

talk to in my spare time that are my

age, they're fascinated by these ideas.

And my hope is maybe these people become

leaders someday. But at the same time,

like I don't know, to get ahead in that

world, man, you got to be a dog. The

world's poisoned and the the people at

the top are not going to let go. They're

going to stay in there till the, you

know, Nam Chosky's age, you know. This

is I just think it's never going to end

in that way. I think it's got to become

some sort of an independent branch like

you know a breakoff. Yeah. You know Zahi

is a um Zahi is a really good example of

of what I think goes on in archaeology

in Egypt. You know you have a lot of

different missions from different

countries working in Egypt. You have

like a German mission. You have the

American mission. You know different

people working at different sites. And I

can't speak to every country that's

working there. You have Australian

missions that are working in Egypt

digging at certain sites. But uh but

um you know when I when I watch Zahi I'm

like I'm like yeah this is the what

you're seeing this is the attitude that

has been at the spear point of

Egyptology for the last lifetime and uh

and you can just imagine what goes on

like I mean think about being on a dig

site with him. Think about working in

his industry underneath him. Think about

all the people that were a part of the

discoveries that he made that feel so

disrespected and so overlooked. You

know, not once during that podcast did

he ever acknowledge all the hardworking

archaeologists that were actually there

in the dirt doing all this hard work. He

just took all this limelight. And so,

you know, clearly his identity is tied

into what's in his coffee table book.

And uh you know, for him to act like

that's the Bible of Giza is insane. I

own the book and I and I've read it and

it has half of a page about the

subterranean chamber in Kufu's pyramid.

So, it's it's you could write a whole

book about that. Um, what is your I

don't mean to interrupt. Keep keep

going. I'll Oh, I was just going to say

I was just going to say, man, um, when

you go to Egypt, there are some things

that you're going to be impalled by by

like the the the modern uh Egyptian

world. I I

uh I uh I do this series on YouTube

called Megaliths You've Never Seen

Before. And I'm always trying to like

find these weird obscure blocks that you

never see on Google. And I'm walking

around the side of the pyramid

of And there's a turd on the side of the

pyramid. A human turd. Yeah. And it's

from the guard that's like sitting up on

top of the hill, the Egyptian guard

looking down at me. And I go around to

uh to land of Kim, who I'm traveling

with. Have you heard of him before? No.

He's he's an American that lives in

Egypt and he's got his theories on on

the pyramids. And I'm traveling with him

and I was like I was like, "There's a

turd on the pyramid over there." And

he's like he's like, "Yeah, yeah." You

know, and I was like, "Tourist?" And he

goes, "No, not not tourist." And so, you

know, that that the poop on the pyramid

is pretty much like that's kind of my

that's kind of my mental that's burned

into my brain, my image of of Egyptology

uh in some aspects, like when it's

isolated to Egypt. I can't speak for all

the other missions that operate in

Egypt, but um what were you about to

say? I don't remember what what where

were we at when I was going to

interrupt. Oh, this is what I I

remember. What is your opinion about

Christopher Dunn's ideas?

I don't know. I I I really don't know,

man. I um So, for people that don't

know, Christopher Dunn has a theory that

the Great Pyramid was actually some sort

of a power generator. Mhm. that it

produce hydrogen gas. I I don't know. I

mean, you know, I know that that the

Egyptians, it's obvious that they have

technology that it that is lost to us

today. The drill holes. Yeah. Yeah. The

way they cut the concrete or the excuse

me, the granite. Yeah. Yeah. Um but I,

you know, I I really don't know as far

as the, you know, like the the

manufacturing aspects, the the engine, I

guess, uh the engineering, the

potential, um usages of these artifacts.

It's not really like my specialty. Like

I I you know uh like these uh these

vases are are Oh, this is a heavy one.

Uh these vases are fascinating. But you

know, I guess my interest would be

studying like what can I what can we

learn about the context around these

things and uh how they existed in their

world and how people interacted with

them more so than um you know what did

these things what were they actually

used for I guess and how exactly were

they made? And so I I just don't know

about Chris Dunn's theory. You know, I I

guess the first thing that comes to my

mind is like, well, you know, most of

the pyramid is limestone and the

interior is granite. I I hear people

talk about how like the makeup of the

granite could be conductive in some way,

but man, it's just it's like the

farthest thing from my set of of

knowledge. Right. It is absolutely

fascinating though because if he's

accurate, if he if he's on to it, like

boy does that change everything. Mhm.

And if those Italian scientists that

believe that there's literally a two

kilometer deep structure underneath the

pyramid, if they're correct, like boy.

Yeah. The whole thing is like, what are

we even talking about now? Yeah. I find

that fascinating. Um I I think that the

the main drama around those scans was,

you know, when the scans came out, I

don't think anybody was denying what was

seen on the scans. I think it was like

they they had the um they had the

artistic interpretations of the art

concepts that they produced of what they

thought was in there. And I think a lot

of people were like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa,

whoa, whoa." Yeah, that was a little

weird cuz cuz even me, I I was a little

bit like, "Huh?" when when they they

made a uh they made an art concept of it

and they took the king's chamber and the

relieving chambers in the great pyramid

and superimposed it onto the middle

pyramid and they they uh I guess

quintupled it like they made five of

them and I was thinking like why why why

do that like you're kind of you're kind

of undermining what your scan is when

you're creating like a fantasy image

because um you're getting ahead of your

skin. Yeah, you're getting ahead of

yourself because you know we need to do

the whole scan again, but you need to

have tests. So like uh Louise Alvarez,

are you familiar with him? He worked on

the on the Manhattan project with

Oppenheimer and after the war in the 50s

or in the 60s uh he got to go to Egypt

and he scanned in the coffer pyramid. He

did the Muan scans and when he was in

there they tested uh they tested it all

before. So he was able to scan up

through the pyramid. He got the pinnacle

of the pyramid and he got all four

corners. And so they tested it and they

did it several times just to confirm

that what they were getting was right.

And uh the I think the Mulan scan only

scanned like 19% of the pyramid. This is

the 60s. So um but they didn't find

anything. But the Stanford project came

the next decade and they found

subterranean uh chambers under Coffer's

pyramid. There's one like 69 ft down and

another one 120 ft down. Huge chambers

bigger than the chambers inside the

pyramids. And so, um, yeah, I mean, I

guess we just have to wait and see, um,

what's going to happen. And I know that

the scanned pyramids guys, the ones who

found the the void above, uh, the Grand

Gallery in the Great Pyramid, I know

they're interested in this now, and

they're going to verify whe if this is

true or not. And, uh, yeah, I'm I'm

interested in seeing how this goes. This

could be a big year, man. If if they

actually drill into that void above the

Grand Gallery, that's going to be a big

deal. What do you think's in that void?

I I have no idea. You know that it's

pretty big, right? It's the size of two

semi-truckss.

It's It's the same size or bigger than

the Grand Gallery itself. And the Grand

Gallery when you go in, it's a it's a

huge building or you know, you're inside

a building inside of the pyramid. And um

it's as big or bigger than that. And you

know, the most conservative explanation

is that it's an open interior that

served as a ramp where they were pulling

the blocks up higher up to the top.

Nobody really knows exactly how they

were built in the in the uh the angle of

that Grand Gallery is really, really

steep. I don't know that you could pull

an 80 ton granite block up, an angle

that steep. It seems like everyone who's

an expert in in that, you know, who

studies independently is like, "No,

you're never going to pull you're never

going to pull weight up." Um, to be

honest, I I have no idea. You know, I'm

I was fascinated when I heard an

Egyptologist when I was in Egypt in

January and I was asking him, "What do

you think that they're going to find in

that void?" And he was like, he was

telling me, "I think that that's where

Kufu is buried." And I was like, "Oh,

okay. Really? So, you actually think

that he's still in the pyramid?" He was

like, "Yeah, I think I think all the

rest of it was a decoy, and I think that

his son, who's able to continue his

legacy, like permanently sealed him in

that in that tomb?" And I was like,

"That's that's fascinating." And uh and

I said I said, "You know, there's other

voids that they found, too. What do you

think of those?" And so, we're standing

on this Feluca at 1:00 a.m. on the Nile,

and we're just, you know, shooting the

[ __ ] And he was like, he's like, "I

have something to show you." And he

pulls out his phone. He was like, he's

like, "I cannot send to you, but I will

show you." for one second. He showed me

a photo of the inside of a chamber that

I've never I hadn't seen before and it

hasn't been published yet. Uh I I'll let

you know when it comes out. Um but it's

burned into my mind. It's from the floor

shooting across the room. All you can

see is two walls meeting each other and

a roof. And I I said I said that's in a

p that's in that's in the great pyramid.

He goes and he was like and he he

wouldn't share he wouldn't share it with

me. I didn't want to press him too much.

Um but I almost stole his phone. Give me

that phone, [ __ ] Shut up. You

can't keep this. [ __ ] out of here. Well,

you know, man, that's happening all over

the world. Like, this delay of of

information is all over the world. Do

you remember the the tunnels that came

out or the the um maybe it's in

November. The headlines that No. Yeah,

it was in November. The headlines that

came out about the tunnels that were

found under Cusco in Peru that connect

to Saki Woman and they go underneath the

Corona. They knew about that a long time

ago. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's documented.

Um, in the in fall of last year, I made

friends with uh the head archaeologist

at that site. And one early morning at

like 4:00 a.m., he took me down inside

part of the tunnels. And uh yeah, I was

I was in there before it all came out.

And uh he took me into So all these

archaeologists, they like live on site.

And these are all these are all Inca

people. So they believe that they're

studying their ancestral heritage. These

these are really good people. and I'm in

their, you know, shoddy little home

that's on the archaeological site. I

mean, they probably make no money and

but they're just they're just so

passionate about this and they feel like

they're doing something that's like one

of the most important things anybody in

the world is doing. And uh have you been

to Peru? No. When you go to Cusco, man,

the Sacred Valley, it's it has something

there that not even Egypt has. I don't

know how to explain it really. It's um

it's it's a sacred place. It's like the

Sacred Valley is exactly right. It it's

a magical kind of place. Machu Picchu.

Uh you should book two days when you go

because you're going to get rained on on

one of the days. But you're out there on

this, you know, 7,800 ft mountain top

and it's so steep you cannot see the

bottom when you're looking over the side

of the city and you're just in this

sacred place in the middle of the Amazon

up in the mountains and it's just a

different place, man. Um it has a type

of charm that like not even Egypt has.

Egypt, you're going to be blown away by

the structures. You're going to be blown

away by the by the pyramids and the

temples, but this is something else. It

has a it has an otherworldly like you

feel like you're on some kind of like

Star Wars planet when you're there. It's

fascinating because of the environment.

Yeah, it's like the environment. Um, you

know, I I wondered if it was when you're

in Cusco, you're 11,500T elevation and I

wondered if I was like missing oxygen to

my brain and I was like, whoa, this

place is awesome, you know? But no, it

really is amazing and uh the people are

so nice and um anyway you was a trip

like what was that? Uh I think it's I

think it was very similar to um

Alexandria's library. I think it was a

place of study where people are studying

the studying the stars. Um

archoastronomy is like is like the next

frontier of of archaeology. It's the way

that people it's the way that ancient

people are interacting with the night

sky and what they know about the cosmos.

you know, the Maya were calculating like

millions of years into the future and

millions of years into the past. U and

they had this numerology system that's

just amazing. Um but but anyway, so so

I'm at so I'm at Saki Woman and they

take me into this back room and uh they

show me all these bodies that they pull

I probably shouldn't be saying this but

whatever. They show me all these bodies

that they pulled out of the tunnels and

it was these uh it was these they

thought that they were like sacred

guardians of whatever is inside of this

tunnel and these are all buried at Sock

Woman. So there's like skulls

everywhere. There's boxes and all these

bones. There was a uh there was like an

obsidian u mirror with like a little

stick on it. Bunch of gold artifacts in

this room. It was just boxes upon boxes

upon boxes upon boxes. And I haven't

seen any of this stuff published yet.

So, this is how much of a delay there is

on archaeology. And um what is the delay

in that stuff? Cuz it would seem like

such an enormous discovery. Yeah, it's

um what I think it is is well, you kind

of have I would I would say it's a mix

of a lot of different things. Um let's

say let's say the most non-malicious

side is that these countries are totally

dependent upon tourism and they want to

prepare like a media you know uh like a

big media buzz to drive tourism. So they

want to do it at the right time of the

year and then it'll inspire people to

book their trip down down to the sacred

valley. You know it's all it's about

it's a money-making machine, right? It's

it's it's their biggest draw to come and

see this part of the world. That seems

so counterintuitive because new

discoveries would make people want to

visit. Yeah. Yeah. They they just want

to hold it off to like the right part of

the year. This is this is something I've

heard in Peru. This is something I've

heard in Egypt. U you know the uh uh do

you remember uh uh the tomb of Tutmos

the discovered recently. Um I heard

about that. So let me think that that

came out two or three months ago and

when I was there in October I had heard

that that it was that it was found. So,

so these things are happening way way in

advance. Now, the other side is there's

sort of this Zahiwas effect like uh like

uh Ed Barnhart, my professor mentor, he

wanted to study um in Peru whether or

not the Inca or ancient Peruvians are

like fusing these andite stones

together. So, you've seen how they how

the stones like fit together in the same

way that they do at the Valley Temple in

Egypt, the red granite. So they're using

this gray andesite. It's which is

sometimes the andesite is harder than

the granite in Egypt. And they're

they're like morphing these stones

together at impossible angles. You know,

I'm sure you've seen the 12-sided stone

and you maybe you've seen the scoop

marks on the side of the stone where it

looks like the the outside of the stone

was softened at one point and you could

like scrape a piece off. And so it's

it's Dr. Barnhart's idea that somehow

um well, and it's not without evidence.

So in the Chilean desert um the Inca are

building upon the Inca Empire were

building upon roads that went all across

South America and these roads weren't

initially the foundations weren't laid

by the Inca. They may have been improved

by the Inca but they go back to the Wari

Empire which predates the Inca and it

almost certainly goes back further than

this. uh the southernmost point of these

highways, it goes off into the Chilean

desert, into the Atakama desert, and

they just kind of disappear into the

desert. And for a long time, it's been a

mystery of what the heck are are these

Peruvians doing down in the Chilean

desert? What is it down there? What's a

resource that they need? But there are

these um there are these acid deposits

that are down in that desert. And uh

somehow they they invented somehow they

invented this clay pottery that whatever

they used to make it, the acid wouldn't

melt through the pottery so you could

carry it. Uh there's evidence of this at

Tiwanaku as well, which I'm sure you've

heard of Tiwan Tanwanaku. Um there's

evidence of this of this acid at

Tiwanaku and people would talk about uh

how the um how the acid could like melt

the stones and sometimes they talk about

how like bird poop or bird um I don't

even know like throw up or whatever

could could melt the stone. And so

there's all these, you know, ideas or

these myth myths about the stones

melting. Anyways, Dr. Barnhart's idea

was that was that those roads go down

there because they are mining and

collecting the acids and they're

bringing them back and they're softening

the outside of the stone and rather than

carving the stones to fit together,

they're setting the stones on top of

each other and it's creating its own

morph, if that makes sense. They're the

stones are morphing together. And so he

there's two reasons, but you see them a

lot as to why he thinks this. Um there

was an earthquake in 1650 that destroyed

the Spanish city that was sitting on top

of the Inca city of Cusco. So you have

this ancient city that's there and the

stones are so massive the Spanish

couldn't tear them all down. So they

just gave up and they built new

buildings over it. In 1650 this horrific

earthquake knocked down the Spanish city

and the ancient buildings were still

there. Hadn't moved at all. In 1950,

another earthquake happened, knocked

down the Spanish city and the uh the

ancient city is still standing. So now

these are preserved as you know cultural

heritage monuments and they don't build

over them but they like like a Starbucks

or a KFC or a McDonald's will be built

inside of an ancient Inca building.

You'll walk in and it's like megalithic

stonework inside of KFC. It's amazing.

Wow. But it's everywhere. It's the whole

city. It's the whole modern city. When

you go one day, you just walk walk. One

of the projects we're going to do uh for

the Maya Exploration Center is I'm gonna

go down to Cusco for a month and I'm

gonna make uh the world's first map of

where all the stones actually are. There

there is a map that tourists get, but

it's a shitty map. It's not even

accurate. So, that's one of my projects

is I'm going to map all of these stones

and where they are around Cusco and

it'll be like on an app or a website or

something where you can find it. Um but

yeah, it's it's just uh it's incredible.

So they preserve the stones. And so when

you're walking around, getting back to

why can we see some images of the stones

that would indicate that they they

possibly were melted? Like what's like

the best Oh man, how could you search

this up? Uh maybe just look up uh um

Cusco cyclopian stones. We may be able

to find an image and and I could show

you something on my phone. I know I've

got it on my phone. Okay. Um uh maybe I

could send it to you, but I'll actually

send send you the photo. And uh these

not these. So, so some of these are from

Saki Woman. Uh, okay. So, to the top

left here. So, that's the 12-sided

stone. It's on this building. When you

walk around this building, um, the name

is escaping me right now. It's the

palace of It's the palace of something.

Um, when you walk around this, uh, when

you walk around this building, you're

going to see some of the stones where an

earthquake has separated. So, you have

two stones that sit perfectly on top of

each other. Well, and when an earthquake

happens, one of these stones will slide

back. And when it does, you'll see an

angle that ramps up like this up to the

exterior. And so what it looks like is

the stone is placed on top and it

smooshed the stone down. Does that make

sense? Whoa. Um, man, I I if we searched

hard enough, we could find it here. I I

will send you this photo. I've got it on

my phone. Um, wow. Yeah. Uh, yeah.

Just that idea is fascinating. And so it

melted into place. Yeah. Oh. Uh, okay.

Um,

so they cut these stones used as this is

the theory. Is that it right there? No.

No. So they cut these stones, use the

acid and set them in to seal so that

there's no gap in between the stones. So

it's not that they have to carve it

perfectly, but rather that the weight of

the other stone, they get it roughly the

right shape and then and then lay them

down on top of each other. Um, it's on

it's on one of these walls. So, that one

you have your cursor on, that's fake. I

walked up to it and it's like hollow. I

was like tapping on it. It's just a fake

wall. Um, some I don't know why in Cusco

they have some they they some people

will decorate their walls to make them

look like they're cyclopian walls. You

go knock on it and it's like plastic,

but there's tons and tons and tons and

tons. The majority of the city is just

the ancient city. What is this Inca

stone monument irreparably damaged? This

is like someone cut out a piece of it.

Yeah. Somebody went up to it in the

middle of the night like a drunk tourist

and started hitting it with a hammer.

the 12sided stone, which is like the

most sacred stone in Cusco. Yeah, people

are [ __ ] gross. Yeah. Okay. So, so

you see this long uh the stone of the 12

angles, that one right there in the

middle. That stone is in that alley

right there. If you could find it, but

you know, it's so crazy building on top

of that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what's

so weird about it. Like, look at this

stupid house that's falling apart that's

on top of these ancient stones.

Yeah, it's it it's crazy, man. It's uh

it's an amazing place. You'll walk

around and just be consistently stunned

by the amount of stonework that's there

and what they are able to achieve. And

this kind of cyclopian stonework where

the stones all have these, you know, no

two stones are exactly alike.

Um you you see that stonework in one

place in Egypt, which is at the uh the

Valley Temple um next to the Sphinx. And

you don't see that, as far as I know,

recreated anywhere else, but in Peru,

it's everywhere.

Wow. Yeah. So, that's kind of a repaired

wall. You can see that it fell apart and

they put it back up. Um, but these are

these are mortarless buildings. Oh, hey,

uh, go go go if you go just one below

the one that you're at right now. So,

this is the temple of the moon at Machu

Picchu. Look at the size of the of the

of the stone wall. That's one stone on

the lower on the lower part of it. And

you can see that the size of the stones

that are together is as earthquakes have

rattled the city, the the wall still

kind of holds together. It bends and

holds together completely mortal. It's

just fascinating. And on top of that,

um, Machu Picchu

itself, 60% of the megalithic

construction work is in the foundation

of Machu Picchu. So it's underneath what

you're seeing. And uh, and there are

areas that are roped off where you can

go down like underneath the city, but

it's all roped off. and and I I don't

know a lot about it. Um I got I got a

little bit of a photo of where you can

go down into these I don't think I think

they're like man-made labyrinths that

are underneath the city, but there's a

lot more there. And so when you're

there, you just get this like intrigue.

And uh and I was curious how Egypt would

stack up because because I did uh I did

Peru last year and then the day I landed

from Peru, I had headed off to Egypt for

a month and then um Damn, what a life.

Yeah, it it was You got a great life,

dude. That's cool. Yeah. Oh, well, thank

you. That's really cool. It It's just uh

How far is this from Nazca? Very far.

Peru is deceivingly big. Peru is like

half the size of the United States.

Really? It's really really big. Wow. I

had no idea. Yeah, the Nazca lines are

really really really far away. Um it's

very hard to do

a you can't do a tour of like all of

Peru. It's too big. It would be like it

would be like if you were going to go on

a United States tour, you'd have to pick

a place to go because it's just so

massive. Um, usually when people like do

a tour of Peru, they'll pick like

Paracus, Nazka, you know, you pick these

uh desert coastline areas and you go see

that because to get from there to the

sacred valley is quite a journey. Yeah.

Yeah. It would take takes like a day and

a half of consistently traveling to

actually get there. Have you seen any

new scans of the Nazca lines where they

they found new petetroglyphs? Yeah.

Yeah. The um man, there's going to be so

much like that that's going to be found.

People are going to be able What is all

that stuff? Fly these. Well, you know,

it's it's amazing like how

exactly one, what's the inspiration for

making these giant uh you know, the

sophistication is in the planning and

the math behind how exactly you make

these uh how exactly you make these

images in the ground that are miles wide

and very intricate. Like if you look at

the spider, the spider, there's a spider

there that's anatomically correct for a

local spider that's there. And there's

some aspect about the spider, a detail

that they incorporate that you would

only know if you were like really

studying these little creatures and

wanted to recreate it on a massive

scale. But the legs, man, they're

they're mapping. I mean, look at this is

this is an enormous thing in the ground

that if you don't have flight, you're

never going to be able to know that you

did it that that you did it precisely,

right? Or unless you had very meticulous

planning and everything. Um, but again,

what's the inspiration for this? What's

the inspiration? Why would you be doing

this? What is this for? Why does it have

that one leg that hooks off to the left?

I don't know. See that? That one

lengthened piece. Very strange. Well,

you know, the Nazka, they

um the the exact timeline of of their

civilization is a little bit blurry, but

I mean, they had they had disappeared

more than a thousand years before the

Spanish arrived. Jamie, can I ask you

what what is that all about? Why does it

have all those additional lines? I don't

Someone's doing different I don't know.

Is that just art? Yeah, I think they're

making it on maybe one of those sand

tables or something like that. Be a cool

t-shirt. Um there's so other weird ones

like the one that looks like an

astronaut. Yeah, he does. I actually

think that that's a I actually think

that's a palpa line, which is uh it's a

different culture that does the same

thing. If you if you look up pulpa

lines, you may be able to tell. Oh, so

there's quite a few of them. Look at

that one. The jester one. The one with

the antenna at the upper left like Oh,

yeah. Look at him. No, no, no. That

Yeah, there it is. Like that one. Where

does that come from? Just can't make it

that big. Make it a little smaller.

There you go. What is that? AI covers.

What's that? It says AI on cover. Oh,

are they AI? But this is AI. This is the

AI. Look at the shark. Look at the shark

on there. Isn't that cool? So, you have

seafaring, dude. Okay. Do you know of

Vanapu in in uh Easter Island? It's I

think it's called Vapu. It's this

platform building that on Easter Island

with all the big heads. That is the

exact same architecture as what we're

seeing in Peru. These people are

traveling out into the Pacific Ocean and

back. You know, it just it's it's

fascinating, man. Uh Thor Hired Doll

with Kiki. He proved it. Yep. There we

go. Yeah. So, you know, it's falling

apart. It's not the same stone. It's a

it's a local volcanic sandstone, I

think. I don't think that this is

basalt. It might be basalt. Um but it's

a volcanic It's a volcanic stone. I'm

I'm actually pretty sure it's basalt.

It's made out of the same thing of of

the Easter Island heads. Um, so you have

this vanapu, but uh another project that

that my exploration center is working on

later this year is we're going down to

um make a new updated map,

archaeological map of Easter Island,

Rapanoui. And uh I'm not going, but this

is Dr. Barnhart doing it. And there's

another site down on the remote end of

the island where there's another

structure like this that you never see

mentioned. And so that we're going to

document that and put that out. Um, so

there's no doubt that I mean these

people are incredibly advanced,

incredibly connected, incredibly

intelligent, and it's just so

mysterious. Um, okay. Do you know of the

Ble lines? Have you heard of this? No.

Ble, California. There there are Nazka

lines up there. Really? Yeah. Yeah. We

should look this up. Um, yeah. So,

where's Ble? Uh, I think it's right

before you get to Nevada. You're like

driving. So, if you if you uh you'll

pass right by it if you're driving from

Las Vegas into California, I think. Um

so, Ble Lines. Yeah, we should Yeah, we

should zoom in from Google Earth. This

would be cool.

Where is it, Jeremy? It's on the 10.

It's on the 10. I was trying It's like

right where my cursor is. So Oh, so

that's Ble, California. You might be

able to look up Ble lines. I did, but I

was trying it was so I was trying to

show you where it was. Oh, right. So,

these are the line Oh, whoa. Yeah,

they're huge.

Whoa.

So, dude, this is not What the [ __ ] is

that? This This is I mean, to me, it's

pretty obvious that there are people who

are and uh this is they think that this

is younger than the Nazca lines. But

even if it is, it's pretty obvious to me

that you have traders and you have

people who are very capable of traveling

all up and down the Americas. It's all

interconnected. And how many of these

lines exist? Uh, it's it's not really um

majorly studied, but I think that

there's a few of these of these images

that are out there and more that are

further off into the desert that some

people have. Uh, one of them was a

monkey. How do they even know what

monkeys are? Well, I'm trying to figure

out what Well, uh, okay, here's a great

that's a great question. There were

there monkeys in California? No, I doubt

it. But there were um an idea of how

this could happen is so at Teayot

Tibwacon like I was talking to you this

is an hour north of Mexico City. There

were monkeys that we have found that

were in zoos in Teayotakan like like

dead monkeys that are buried and this

species of monkey is only found in the

southern Amazon. So it's all the way up

in northern Mexico. So all of these

things are connected. Okay. Another

another

um Jamie, could we look up uh please for

clarity? That one was an Ascaline. The

monkey was not in the California. Oh,

okay. Okay, that makes sense. Came up.

Check. Yeah. So, they those monkeys are

imperative. Well, even so, there are

they're Amazonian monkeys that are

coming. Let's see what the other BL

lines are. I was trying to go through

it. The the article started showing

different stuff because it was

explaining what they were. So,

comparisons to NASA. They're found in

1932 by a pilot. That's what I was

trying to figure out. Okay. So, looks

like a giraffe.

There's a fence around. Could be a deer.

Yeah, it could be a deer. But are deer

are are deer out there? Quadriped, it

says. Uh well, there's deer in

California for sure. There's probably be

mule deer in that part of the country.

Um there certainly is in Nevada. Nevada

has a big population of deer. California

figure represents horses reintroduced

historical date sometime after the

1500s. So maybe they don't know when

these scroll back up again. They have

Yeah, they have no idea. I don't know if

that's a horse. Doesn't look like horse

to me. I think you're right. The tail

though is a lot longer than a deer. Oh

yeah, a little a deer. They've got the

little tail. Looks like a shitty artist.

I was stumbling something with the mech

stuff. I think it was the Mech. There's

a bunch I see zumorphs here. There's a

bunch of other weird rocks that had like

anthropomorphized animals playing on top

of humans. Do you know about Have you

ever heard of wear jaguars? No. Oh,

dude. This is like this is my [ __ ]

Okay. So, where

jaguars? It is another piece of evidence

of at least well the lower part of North

America connecting with the Amazon. Oh,

dude. This is this is badass. All right.

So, um so the very first some of the

first evidence that we have of people in

the Americas. So, you think of like

where do you where do you imagine that

people migrate into the Americas? Like

where do you think we would find the

first evidence at? Oh boy.

Well, I would imagine it'd be somewhere

where the mix were. Yeah, maybe. So,

yeah. Or, you know, uh uh traditionally

Sure Sure. Sure. Traditionally, people

think that maybe you would find it, you

know, in Alaska coming in. Um

uh you know, people migrating over

during or before after the ice age.

Sure. Um or I'm sorry, during and before

the ice age. Uh, and then some people

might think that, you know, you have

Polynesians that are skipping across the

the Pacific that are coming into, but

most of the time it's west coast. You'd

find people think you'd find something

out there. Some of the oldest evidence

that we have are 30,000y old caves on

the east side of the Amazon on the east

side, the opposite side of the Americas,

as far away as you can possibly get

from, you know, where people would have

traditionally arrived in the Americas.

Now, that evidence is constantly

changing. I mean, there's constantly new

things that are being found like white

sands and there's whatund 150,000 year

old uh like bone tools or chisels that

are being found where people were

cutting into woolly mammoth bones. You

know, crazy stuff. But one of these old

evidences is um people in the Amazon 20

to 30,000 years ago on the east coast in

Brazil on the Atlantic coast and they

had these um uh I think it may have been

Teddy Roosevelt's granddaughter that

found this. uh she was she was a South

American archaeologist. She was inspired

to to go to the Amazon. And uh

so it's really interesting in the Mech

realm um there's what's called a wear

jaguar. It's just like a it's like a

werewolf spelled, you know, sort of the

same. Um but you have this you have

these two different dichotoies in the

Mech world. You have the Mech heads,

which by the way, I brought you a head.

Nice.

More stuff for this table.

sit right next to hecklefish. So this is

made

So this is made from basalt by the

modern people. Whoa, that's cool. Yeah,

super cool. So these guys Thank you.

These guys, we don't know who they are.

We don't know exactly what they

represent. Um because they're they're

just guys with normal faces, you know?

They're they have ch faces, but they're

all wearing this helmet. What the hell

does the helmet mean? Um, it could be

two different things. It's a signature

of their divine like rulership like like

we think they might be kings. Somebody

who can, you know, somebody who can

commission a monument this big. This is

a testament to his power. Or these are

revered ball game players. The

Mesoamerican ball game. I'm sure you've

do dove into this a little bit. Or it's

both. That the, you know, the most

masculine thing that you can be is a

great Messoamerican ball game player.

And that's the king. He wants to see

himself out of it. It's the same thing

as uh Marcus Aurelius son um why am I

forgetting his name? Um the the really

bad emperor um god I can't remember his

name but anyways he wanted to be seen

like Hercules fighting in the in the

coliseum and um so we think this might

be a kind of similar thing. There's a

whole different type of people that are

existing in the mech realm. Um we could

look up uh mech wear jaguar please

Jamie. Um thank you. And um there's a

whole different type of person. So,

here's one image. If you keep scrolling,

you'll see uh images that are carved

into So, this is a little bit of a

better image right here. But sometimes

when they're carved into jade and you

can see the light reflecting off of it,

you get a better uh you get a better um

uh image of what these things really

look like. So, wear

jaguar and maybe do jade. Oh, yeah.

There we go. Uh top top right.

Yeah, check that guy out. So, that's a

so that's a human. That's not an animal.

It is a human who has turned into the

essence of a jaguar. And we see this

everywhere all over the ch world. But

they're never the colossal heads.

They're always in jade or their smaller

mech monuments. And sometimes the heads

are um sometimes the heads are uh are

maimed like that or the head is just

completely destroyed and there's these

jaguar claw claws that are carved into

anch face like tearing apart its face

tearing apart the symbol that's on the

top of their head. And so a lot of

people have wondered like why are these

scratch marks in all of these mech

monuments? But all the scratch marks

only appear in mech monuments that are

not the wear jaguar. And so what I

think, this is a little bit of research

I'm doing, and I'm writing a book on the

Mex right now, is what I think is

there's a feud between the rulers and

the shamanic class. And I think that

these wear jaguar people, these people

who are taking some kind of

hallucinogen, taking a psychedelic, and

and basically imbuing the essence of a

jaguar in some strange crazy way that we

can't can't explain. These are feuding

with each other. And when I'm in Mexico

and I'm in these museums where you have

these mushroom stone effiges that are

all lined up, I'll ask a local

archaeologist there. Um, I'll be like,

"So, these mushrooms, do you think that

these depict hallucinogens that people

that they may have been taking to get

high?" "Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no." I'm

like, "Really? You don't?" Like, you

look at all the crazy [ __ ] that ancient

Americans are making. If you look at

ancient American artwork anywhere, you

can tell it's all like mindbending stuff

to look at. They're they're clearly, I

think, they're being influenced by

plants. Now, this wear jaguar isn't just

isolated to the ch world. It also pops

up at a place called Shaveine Dewar.

Have you ever heard of this? No. This is

in the Andes. It's one of the oldest

cities in the Andes. So, before

Shaveine, um, we can follow the DNA

evidence of burials. It's like you can

tell like okay these these people are

younger if we carbon date their bodies

that are buried underneath these temples

and they're related to these people that

are older. So you're trying to piece

together this DNA web but it's very very

loose. Um so there's a place called uh

there's a culture called Kalupe culture

and uh they are building pyramids before

the old kingdom of Egypt ever even

existed. This is this is 5,500 years ago

at least uh on the coast of Peru like

right on the beach and there's like 15

huge pyramids out there. But this is a

non pottery nonartistic culture. So we

don't have pottery and we don't have art

from them and we don't have stone

statues or anything like that. Just

these structures. And from what we can

tell they keep getting hit by these like

apocalyptic storms, these tropical El

Nino and Leninas that are just

destroying their civilization. and

they're trying to to to rebuild it

again. And eventually they say, "You

know what? Forget this. We're moving up

into the Andes." Well, when they move up

into the Andes on Shine Dewantar, they

then come in contact with Amazonians.

They meet Amazonians for the first time.

And all of a sudden, these people, they

have pottery, they have art, they have

gods, they have a pantheon, they have

stone statues, and they are wear

jaguars. They They are these shimanic

people. Oh, this is from Oh, this is Is

this on my uh ex? Oh, cool. Um, so, uh,

so I posted about this today. So, these

faces right here, um, these are on the

side of the temple of Shaveine that

faces east off into the Amazon. And when

you look at Shaveen pottery, it's the

same as Amazonian pottery in the region.

So the people of the Andes as soon as

they interact with the Amazon they take

they they acquire this religion, this

culture, this

iconography, they completely change as a

people and they start

building the first structures that we

know of that have interiors because

before this these pyramids that were out

on the coastline, you're like walking on

top of this big stone mound. But at

Shaveen, it's a it's a huge square style

building that you can that has open

doors that you can walk in through. And

all of this happens as soon as they

interact with Amazonians. And so yeah,

so this is it's a huge

structure and the uh the stones that

make up the staircases. Oh my god. Okay.

Have you seen um the name is escaping me

right now but uh but wandering wolf went

out there Michael Collins and he found

the the he saw these big trilithon

stones that are sitting on the side of

the mountain in Peru. Do you remember

this giant stones? That white stone is

the same white stone that's used in the

staircases and on the uh door jambs and

the lentils here at Shaveen. So you see

that the the open door right there at

the bottom. Yeah. So those white stones

on the side, those stones may have come

from that quarry that he went and

visited where those gigantic, you know,

trilithon balbeck sized stones. How far

is that? It's really really far from

here. I I don't I don't know. That would

be something good that I should know. Um

so some of it's megalithic, some of it's

decent size. It's it's really that front

wall right there with that entrance, the

steps going up to it. And then on the

inside of the temple, you have the

megalithic stonework. And then you have

this uh then you have this uh monolith

on the inside. So you see this guy, look

at that. That's that's a that's a human

with jaguar fangs coming out of his

mouth. And all of these tenant heads

that are on the side of the temple,

they're facing out towards the Amazon.

It's telling us that this religion, this

idea of these people who are somehow

doing these shamanic practices, which I

think are so clearly, so obviously is

plants like iawasa or whatever it is. um

inducing these people into a state of

consciousness where somehow they're

taking on the effects of the jaguar like

uh you and Paul Rosley talked about this

and when he was talking about his um his

experience with Iawaska I believe he

said and maybe was on this show that for

a moment like he shrunk down to the size

of an atom and he's floating through the

Amazon and then all of a sudden he was

looking through like the eyes of a

jaguar for a moment and this is

something constant theme amongst people

don't Yeah. Yeah. So, this is something

that I think I think it's I think it's

evidence. I mean, we can go we could

talk about this forever, but I think

there's so much evidence. Oh, isn't this

cool? Yeah. Well, there's also evidence

that jaguars eat the same plants. Yes.

Yeah. Have you seen this on uh what is

it? Weird nature. There's a documentary

out there called We Weird Nature.

Jaguars tripping. Yeah. And uh and it it

like um it makes it uh it makes it akin

to uh like catnip, but it's like the

jaguar also has a tail. This is why I

brought this up. Terrence McGetta had a

very fascinating theory about why

ketamine in particular feels like an

empty office building and his his theory

it's like ketamine is like you enter a

realm but there's no one there. Mhm. And

this is, by the way, he's talking about

ketamine in like the 80s and '9s.

Whereas his theory is that when you

embibe, when you take a psychedelic

medicine, when you take any sort of

psychedelic plant, mushroom, whatever it

is, you're not just having an

experience, you are also interacting

with all of the experiences that have

ever been had with these things. which

is one of the reasons why when people

take certain psychedelics, they have

very uh clear Egyptian iconography

appears in their in their trip. And his

belief or his theory was that it's far

more complex than you're taking a

psychedelic drug. You're taking this

psychedelic that allows you to interact

with all the experiences anyone has ever

had with those. Oh wow. including

jaguars.

Now, also there's always been this

conflict between the ruling class and

this shamanic rituals. This is the

Illusinian mysteries. They shut all that

stuff down. Absolutely. Wouldn't it make

sense that the claw marks would

represent the battle between the sham

shamans and these ruling class who of

course don't want people tripping and

opening their mind and questioning

authority and trying to restructure

everything and like it'd be a huge

problem if you were like a Zahi Hawas

guy trying to keep the the lid on

everything and just keep control and

power and and then you got all these

people that are tripping balls that like

have completely different ideas that you

you have to silence that. Well, what's

the what's the issue here? The issue is

these guys, they get together in a

circle and they drink this stuff and

then they start having these wacky

ideas. Let's put a stop to that. Let's

put it the same way they did with theian

mysteries, the same way they've done

countless times. Shamans that were like

the whole Santa Claus things where he's

coming down the chimney. Why was that?

Well, was because Siberian shamans were

ostracized. They were they were forced

to actually not go through the doorways

because they had to sneak into people's

homes. So, they came down chimneys. This

is the theory. Oh, that's fascinating.

Yeah. Which is like, why the [ __ ] would

Santa come down the chimney? Like, it

doesn't make any sense. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, that was the idea. Like, sha

Santa's a shaman. Also, sha Santa, at

least in modern depictions, has the

exact same coloration as the Ammonita

Mascaria mushroom. Oh, wow. You've never

seen the the comparison. She's Santa and

the mushroom. No. The fascinating

comparison, and this is also hotly

debated, you know, they're say, "No,

well, Coca-Cola was the ones that made

them red and white, the Santa Clauses,

maybe." But there's old pictures of

Christmas images that always include

elves and Amanita Mascaria mushrooms.

There's old Christmas cards from like

the turn of the century. There's old

like Merry Christmas. It's [ __ ]

mushrooms. There's mushrooms everywhere.

So mushrooms have a microisal

relationship with coniferous trees,

particularly ammonita miscarrias. You

would find them underneath pine trees

the same way you find brightly colored

presents under Christmas trees. In order

to dry them, they would pick these

mushrooms and hang them in the trees so

they would air dry just like ornaments

on a tree. Wow. There's so many

parallels. It's really weird. The Santa

was a mushroom one is a weird one. It's

a really weird one because there's a ton

of the like why are we so interested in

[ __ ] pine trees? Why is it Well,

those trees had this very connected

relationship which with those mushrooms.

Yeah. Well, you know, I find that see

you find some of them ancient pictures

of uh Christmas ancient Merry Christmas

images. I mean, this is like Yeah. Look

that look this look at that shaman. that

shaman to the left. Go back to scroll

back. Look out. Look at that. Siberian

shaman looks exactly like the coloration

of an ammonita mascara. Now go to that

Merry Christmas image that you have

there right next to your cursor. Look at

that ammonita mascara. A merry Christmas

and a happy new year. Amanita mascaria

image. These uh women with good times

Christmas or these children rather with

good times Christmas. Have you ever

tried these mushrooms? Yes. Didn't work

really. Yeah.

I think there's well McKenna didn't have

a good experience with them either. And

there's there's a lot of thoughts that

he had about whether or not they were

genetically variable, whether or not

they're geographically and even

seasonally variable that you're not

dealing with the same mushrooms. Sort of

like, you know, there's different

version like obviously manipulated, but

there's a very different version of

banana that we're enjoying today versus

the wild banana. Oh. Uh corn, too.

Amaze. Oh my gosh. So different. A lot

of different plants have like similar

history. It's I mean fungus is a very

different thing, right? Because fungus

actually breathe air. They're not

plants. They're much closer to animals

than they are to plants. That's

fascinating. Yeah, they're real weird.

And they're also really weird that they

seem to be like the internet for plants.

like the microisal relationship and the

fact that they have this very bizarre

network of mcelium that's under the

ground. Like the largest living organism

is a mushroom colony that exists I

believe in the Pacific Northwest. Oh,

really? Yeah. See if you can find that.

Yeah. So, instead of like saying, "Oh,

there's a mushroom that pops out of the

ground." No, that's like the fruing body

of the entire thing. And the entire

thing is enormous. And it's

communicating with plants. It's helping

the plants distribute and share

resources. It's helping them get

information. It's very strange. You

know, Paul Stamuts is like the the best

guy to talk to about this stuff. He's an

a micologist and that he actually gave

me that big ass mushroom at the end of

the table. That's a mushroom. Yeah. It's

weird. Weird. They're weird. You know,

this this whole conversation here it is.

The largest organism on Earth is a

fungus. The blue whale's big, but

nowhere near as huge as a sprawling

fungus in eastern Oregon. Yeah. Holy

crap. Yeah. And again, it [ __ ]

breathes air. Could be as ancient as 800

as

8,650 years. Yeah. Good night. Good

night. Wild. Wild stuff. And you know,

this is what we know about, right? Like

what about what the [ __ ] is in the

Amazon? Oh my god, man. Well, okay.

Okay. So, two things there as far as

what's in the Amazon. First, think about

how let's just talk about North America

above Meso America. So, like let's just

uh let's just include like the modern

day United States. Think about all the

tribes that existed here. How

complicated these histories are. You

know, Squanto is born in the early 1600s

uh among these tribes in Massachusetts.

And when he comes back, he forms this

thing called the Wampaoic Confederation,

whatever, whatever. just in that little

area. There's all these different

cultures with their own history, their

own knowledge and everything. That's one

little part of Massachusetts. Now, think

about the rest of the country and how

vast and sprawling and intricate and how

deep that history really goes and you

can just you could place the United

States inside the Amazon. That's how big

the Amazon is. And we just refer to

natives, tribes who lived in the Amazon

as Amazonians. But it's got it's so much

more complicated than than just that.

Now the next thing is this whole

conversation about talking about the

wear jaguar. You know I get a lot of uh

I get a lot of flack for this for this

topic because um you know you have let's

just call it like boomer archaeologists

who uh have this knee-jerk reaction to

psychedelics and hallucinogens because

it's so ingrained in them that like all

drugs are bad as if all drugs are the

same. You know what I mean? And um I've

been talking to this uh I I was in

Mexico last year and we were uh in the

Yucatan and I was there with an

archaeologist from the Midwest and he

was an archoastronomer

um which is like I was saying earlier

it's it's a guy who studies the way that

I think it's like PBLO ancestral uh

tribes would have interacted with the

night sky and study the night sky. And I

was like I asked him I said okay so what

kind of hallucinagens do you think they

would have had? And I think he told me

like peyote and cannabis and stuff like

that. And I was like, "Okay, so have you

ever um and you know, we would like

every night we we'd get together and

we'd all smoke and just talk about

ancient history and stuff." You know,

you come up with so many interesting

ideas and perspectives and points of

view. You know, when you smoke with like

an actual purpose and you're trying to,

you know, think I'm sure you know very

well I'm talking about. And um I'm and

so he's sitting around with all of us

and he doesn't want, you know, he's not

interested. And I'm like I'm like so

you've been studying archastronomy for

this long. Uh have you ever tried

cannabis or peyote or anything that's up

there? I think there's another one

called Dura. Have you ever heard of

this? That one's supposed to be very

weird. I kind of had terrible

experiences with that. Oh, really? Well,

maybe it's a completely disassociates

you. He was having a conversation with a

guy in a market and he realized in the

middle of the conversation the guy

thought that they were in his apartment.

Oh yeah. Like it does weird things.

Yeah. Well, it might explain why Teayot

Tiwakan civilization and all their

iconography is so terrifying. Like if

you look up uh the great goddess of Teot

Tiwakan, it's these guys with handbags

picking uh picking this deta and like

putting them in their handbags. Oh boy.

And Yeah. Yeah. So that's a weird one

apparently. And so their their whole

their whole civilization is like very

dark and scary. But I asked this

archaeologist. said, I said, "Okay, have

you ever gone out and studied the stars,

you know, from the Native American point

of view while you're smoking cannabis or

you take peyote?" And he's like, "Oh,

no. I I wouldn't do that." And I'm

like, "You have committed your entire

life to studying this ancient culture

that you know very well with studying

the stars and taking hallucinogens, and

you as someone who's supposed to be an

expert in this field, you don't want to

put yourself in the shoes of these

people." I was like I was like, "Dude,

if you laid out at night with all

everything you know about the Pleblo

ancestral people and you smoked weed for

the first time or you uh did peyote or

something, you stayed up and looking at

the stars, you might have an epiphany

about something that you've never

realized because your brain's just

operating in a different way than it

normally does. And uh he was very slow

to like, you know, uh to be open to this

idea. And you know, the Zahi thing kind

of reminded me of this is like, you

know, he has preconceived ideas about

his world and his personal beliefs that

interact with the archaeology, you know,

and so it's really hard for us to study

the ancient world from a completely

unbiased point of view because you have

so many preconceived ideas about your

modern world that influence your

archaeology. And that's why the widely

uh that's why there's no widely accepted

or it's not widely accepted among

archaeologists that Native Americans

were heavily influenced by

hallucinagens. I really think it's

because so many of these people are, you

know, older archaeologists that have a

knee-jerk reaction to drugs of any kind

and they couldn't possibly fathom the

reality that the culture they spent

their life studying are all doing

hallucinogens all the time. And that's

Yeah. Unquestionably. Unquestionably.

It's totally obvious. It's completely

obvious, but um yeah, it's also these

people that haven't had these

experiences, so they don't know what the

effects would be. Yeah. So, they're

they're basically just guessing and a

lot of is based on just say no

propaganda from the [ __ ] '8s. It

really is, man. I I was telling my uh I

was telling my wife this like I didn't,

you know, I don't smoke a lot. Uh when I

do, I'm like out in Big Ben, you know,

out looking at the stars and stuff and

every time I smoke, it's like some kind

of purpose. like, you know, I'm in like

some kind of sacred place and and I

don't do anything harder than than just

smoke cannabis. But whenever I do, I

have some kind of realization about

myself personally. You know, like the

first time uh I don't know, six or seven

years ago when I first smoked, I was

laying up looking at the night sky and

we had taken some photos out in the

desert and I was looking at myself and I

put on a little bit of weight and as I

was looking at myself, I had

disassociated and I was like, "This

person does not represent the brain

that's in my mind. I need to lose some

damn weight." You know, I had this

realization about myself. The last time

uh I was out uh I was out in Big Ben

laying under the stars in the middle of

the desert and uh and I had this like

realization that you know all the time I

spend traveling and and I get to see so

many amazing uh ancient sites and meet

so many cool people and I'm just

constantly go go go go go like I'm

trying to just make this life work. And

I had this realization that the most

important thing I do is is make dinner

for my wife and take my dog on walks.

And I had I would have never had that

like epiphany like dude all this stuff

is really cool but it's for fun and this

is the stuff that you love. Your purpose

is to take your dog on walks and spend

time with your wife and one day it's

going to be to spend time with your

kids. And every time I go into it with

this idea that I hope that I have some

kind of realization. I always do. And um

and it's just like I have this it's I

know that ancient plant medicine is like

the key to unlocking so much of the

ancient world. And um and uh so to

ignore the that knowing that they

embibed to ignore that knowing that it

was a part of these sacred rituals is

kind of silly. Especially when you deal

with the Amazon and Iaska. Oh yeah.

Right. Yeah. I mean if you're going to

be in a place where you want to

completely convene with

nature like that's the place like that

that's the place. And if you there's

this insanely profound hallucinogen, you

know, that the brain produces

endogenously that can be extracted from

plants through this really weird method

where you're taking one plant that has

the drug in it and another plant which

is a monoamine oxidase inhibitor and

you're combining them together and in

the perfect amount and boiling it like

it tastes like [ __ ] Like why are you

doing this? Like how'd you learn? And

then when they've you ask them how they

learned how to do this, they're like,

"The plants taught us." Yeah, I know,

right? You know, and then you they can

take that you can take that same

chemical and they'll pour it in the

water and rather than fishing or, you

know, spearing fish in the water or

hooking them, they pour it into the

water in these little, you know, they

create these little canals off of the

Amazon and fish, piranha, whatever will

swim up in it and they pour that they

pour that that liquid, whatever that

hallucinogen isn't, and it stuns the

fish and they all come to the top and

they only take what they need and they

send the rest back. which is another

reason why I don't think that Native

Americans are responsible for the

extinction of all the megapana in the

Americas because you know uh okay so I'm

so I'm out in the woods in East Texas a

couple weeks ago and we're just walking

around we're talking about the cat

people have you heard of the cat Indians

before and I was trying to talk to my

friend who doesn't know a lot about

Native Americans trying to like tell him

trying to give him the essence of the

people and the words came to me and I

was like I was like if nature

itself took an anthropomorph perfect

form. That's the Native American. These

are people that lived perfectly with

their environment or tried to. At least

most of them did. And um yeah, it's just

uh it's just uh it's amazing, man. So

much can be learned from that. They did

some wasteful things. I I know. I know.

Like the Buffalo jumps. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, yeah, that's that's true.

And and I'm I'm really speaking in

generalities like like I could go on and

on about all the horrific things that

the Aztecs did. This is just a general

or the Comanches did to other Indian,

you know, it's not like this was a uh

it's not at all like this was a utopia

at all. It was complete and utter war.

But then again, you're saying embodiment

of nature. Well, nature's not utopia.

Exactly. Jaguars utopia if you're an

analopee. Yeah. Yeah. Very much so. Um

so, you know, there's some nuance there.

And uh but uh yeah, I just um I don't

know. It's it's just fascinating. You

had a you had a good point in a podcast.

I think you were talking about Oriana um

his expedition down the Amazon and you

were talking about how he was able to

use the stars to navigate uh back to

Spain and you were like you're like well

you know that's what that's what or not

ancient people but you know that's what

people used to do. Everybody was an

astronomer. How much of this experience

has gone to us today? We don't sit

around and look at the stars anymore.

And that's one aspect. We don't we don't

interact with, you know, natural

plant-based, you know, hallucinogens

anymore. There's so many things about

the natural world that we don't interact

with. Those two are huge. And

particularly the one the first one, the

stars, because people don't even

consider how much light pollution. If

you ask the average person what the

night an average person who lives in New

York City or Boston or wherever, the

night sky is polluted. You just don't

think it's polluted, but it's polluted

by light. And you're you're missing this

incredible majestic image of the cosmos

that's so humbling. It puts you in

check. Yeah, for sure. It puts you in

check. It really does. Like anybody that

has a diluted ego, that's going to go

away if you're confronted with the Milky

Way. Yeah. You have some delusions of

grandeur and your your place in you're

like, well, it's not possible. Like just

look at this. It's like I am nothing. I

am nothing and I'm everything. I'm a

part of everything, but I am nothing.

And so many of these people who ex still

today exist in the in the uh the natural

world like the wild, you know, Percy

Faucet uh interacting with these

Amazonian tribes that still live like

this today. These people are still

around. They're they're still Paul

Rosley sent me a video a month ago. Oh,

really? Yeah. You want to see it? Sure.

Yeah. Check this out. I'll show this

video. I can't share it with the world.

So, haha. Sorry. I'm a gatekeeper.

Like everybody's a gatekeeper, I guess.

Yeah. Um, but Paul uh doesn't want

people to know where these people are,

so trying to hide this stuff. But he

took this video while he was uh out in

the Amazon like helping these people. So

this is like video from his phone. God,

where is it?

Paul. Oh, here it is.

Joe, you can't share this with anybody.

I can't share with anybody. to share

with you. Just make sure the camera's on

it.

Wow,

man. That is crazy. Wild.

I mean, you're So those people you're

looking you're looking into the past.

You're looking way into the past. I

mean, way into the past. Just just in

your frame right there, what you were

looking at has existed since the

beginning of time. Yes. And that's

what's interesting is that exists at the

same time as you and I talking on a

podcast where millions of people are

going to hear it and it's all electronic

recording of our voice and images and

then distributed

wirelessly into your phone

instantaneously. The moment this episode

gets uploaded on Spotify, people will

click it and watch it on their phone

instantly. Yeah. like all at the same

time where these people are living in a

homemade. They're in they're in the same

time zone just you and I right now. Same

time zone. It's whatever it is right

now. It's the same time zone. That's

crazy. You know, and when our

civilization when we all destroy

ourselves and thousands of years go by

and everything in this studio is gone,

it all turns to dust. Those people will

continue the legacy of humanity. Well, I

wonder if those people are the preppers

of the Amazonian world. Do you know what

I mean? like like if everything did go

sideways because the Europeans came over

and brought all the diseases and

civilization collapsed, who's going to

live? No, you you are exactly right. Um

so when when country boy can survive?

That's like the Hank Williams Jr. song

in reality. You dude, you're you are

exactly correct. I mean, you're exactly

correct. So when the Spaniards arrive,

uh, they they obviously they land in the

Bahamas, uh, with Columbus, 1492, but

they come down to like Hispanola,

Jamaica, and in the early 1500s, they

start poking around on the shores of the

Yucatan. And, um, and they're kind of

trading and interacting with these

people. You know, these are explorers.

They're all curious, but they didn't

realize that they were giving these

Native Americans disease. And that

disease was spreading through the Maya

world. And maybe more than a decade

later, when Cortez arrives in the Maya

world, he he documents how all the Maya

people are very scrawny and small and

sickly and weak. He didn't realize they

were all dying off. So eventually Cortez

conquers Tino Titlon, the Aztec capital

in 1521. And he sends uh he sends Pizaro

down to find the gold that the Aztecs

were getting from South America or from

this distant land. They didn't 100% know

exactly what South America was yet. He

goes down to South America uh and he

conquers the Inca Empire. And then after

that, Oriana descends down the Amazon.

And when he descends down the Amazon, he

sees these cities that would go on for

15 miles long. I mean, these 15- mile

long cities full of millions and

millions of people, these giant circular

stone buildings, these huge bustling

civilizations. And um and then later on

in the 1700s, 1800s, and then really

densely in the early 1900s, like with

Percy Faucet, Theodore Roosevelt,

everyone around them, they were looking

for these big cities that the Spaniards

had seen, but they didn't exist and they

didn't find any evidence of it of it at

all. And a lot of people like uh like

the British and the Royal uh Geographic

Society, they brush it off as oh the uh

the Spaniards were lying uh so that they

could secure funding for further

expeditions and this was like their

livelihood, the way that they could stay

rich. Of course, then the LAR proves

that these civilizations were there.

Now, the stuff that's been excavated in

the Amazon, we haven't excavated

anything in the center of the Amazon.

It's it's really expensive. It's hard to

do. Archaeologists don't want to live

out there. Whatever, whatever. There's a

million reasons why it doesn't happen.

But on the peripheral of the Amazon, uh

there are areas that get cut flat for

logging. Like you know, as civilization

slowly encroaches on the Amazon, they

are finding u these uh uh villages that

are these I mean they're basically

cities that are these huge geoglyphs

that are cut into the ground. Have you

seen these uh in the Amazon? They're

they're huge, I believe. So I believe

this is some stuff that Graham was

showing. Maybe. So I see if you can show

us. I think Graham has talked about this

before. Maybe he was in America before.

Which should he look if he's looking for

immigration? Uh just Amazon geoglyphs.

They'll they'll come up. They're these

huge squares. Yeah. Perfect. So these

things are Yeah, we definitely talked

about that. These things are gigantic

and uh and they're all over the

peripherals of the Amazon. But the this

was these were the preers living on the

outside. They weren't living in the

hustle and bustle of the you know

million plus population city in the

middle of the Amazon. These are the guys

living on the outside and they all

survived this apocalyptic disease that

went through. They're the people living

in Appalachia. Exactly.

mountains. Yeah. Um, actually, I'm

moving there tomorrow. Are you really?

Yeah, I'm in the middle of moving right

now. Yeah. What a cool place to live.

Yeah, it's beautiful up there, man.

Dude, it's it's an ancient place. Have

you heard of the Nahala Rainforest? No.

Oh, you got to go there tomorrow. It's

it's it's in western North Carolina in

in uh Appalachia. Uh I grew up I grew up

going to Nantala every year. My parents

live in Nahala now. Um, and it's it's a

beautiful ma completely magical place.

And it was it was part of what inspired

this like uh explorer, you know, kind of

thing in me. Um, when you're there, I

even as a kid, I knew that this was an

ancient place. And turns out as an adult

when I started researching it, it's this

pocket of green, I mean, solid dark

green rainforest. In the US, we have

three rainforests. We have Hawaii, we

have Oregon, and we have the Nah Halo

rainforest that most people don't know

about. It's this pocket in the middle of

these mountains that has looked exactly

the same since before the ice age. It's

one of the oldest places in North

America. Wow. And uh it's just a it's

just an an incredibly magical old

ancient place. And uh I'm just like

drawn back there. Um but anyways, yeah,

you should go you should go check that

out. That sounds incredible. Yeah. Yeah.

You're going to live out in that area?

Uh in the Appalachian? Yeah. Yeah. Well,

well, so my my wife is uh so she's like

from South Carolina and she came to uh

she came to Texas when she was younger

and then we met in college and uh my my

family when we first moved to the states

like my family moved to North Carolina

in like 1694 or something crazy like

that and um and so we have some roots up

there like have you ever been to

Gatlinburg, Tennessee? No. So the the

first name of Gatlinburg was Reagan

Town. And so that was where my uh my my

family would were one of the founders of

that town. There's an old hotel there

called Reagan Motel. So my family's

originally from there. And then they

moved down to Texas and started cattle

rustling in the in the late 1890s. Um

but I don't know, just drawn back up

there. Always loved vacationing there.

And so my wife and I are like in the

middle of moving right now. And so uh

two days ago we packed up these two

U-Hauls, drove them to East Texas to my

in-laws. And then we drove to Austin

last night, got a hotel doing this.

Tonight we drive back to East Texas and

then tomorrow we drive to North

Carolina. Wow. Yeah. So what is the

history in terms of like human

occupation in that area? Um man, the

people sprouted out of the ground. Yeah.

It's it's that old, man. There are uh

that's something I'm I'm really looking

forward to getting into. And I'm kind of

excited in a way to get out of Texas

because it's hard to study Native

American history in Texas because you

got to travel so far and everything's so

arid. Like, you know, Austin, this was

this was an ancient Native American

settlement here that we have built this

city on top of. Uh the Alamo in San

Antonio was built on top of a Native

American uh settlement. And you know,

all of our major cities are just a

reskin of an ancient city. And in Texas,

it's really hard. like we have the GT

site that's here in uh that's here in

Austin that proves that Clovis first was

wrong. May maybe you're familiar with

this. Um but up there you're closer to

mound country and you know where all the

mound builders are. I'm a little bit

north of that but in uh North Carolina

it's one of the places that the

Spaniards had a really hard time

infiltrating because of the mountain

ranges and because of how fierce the

Native Americans were. And so, uh, the

archaeological projects up there are

headed up by like two hillbillies that

live in the country. And they're the

coolest guys. They own this little

department store called, uh, the called

the Tiger Store in Hazesville, North

Carolina. And, uh, and they have dug up

like Spanish armor under the ground and

Spanish swords and all kinds of crazy

stuff. And I've gone hiking out there.

And uh, oh, we got we got to look this

up. Uh, Jamie, can we please look up

Judah Rock? It's one of the only

megaliths in North America. And it's

this uh

gigantic megalithic stone that has the

same sort of art style as all the Native

American stuff that we've seen. And it's

some kind of primordial map of western

North Carolina. It's it's massive, dude.

You couldn't fit it in this room. Um

it's called Judah. If you just try to

spell it in some way, you might find it.

There you go. And there's an old photo

of of uh an archaeologist laying behind

it. There you go. To the top left. That

one. Or maybe the one that's colorized

there. That that one's really really

pretty. Um, so nobody knows what this

is. And the Native Americans who were

asked, uh, some of the stories about the

early Native Americans who were asked

how this got here, who moved it there,

their stories are that giants placed

this and that giants used to live in

this land and that they created these

stones. And I have gone around when I

was a little bit younger, I would go

through the rainforest and like

wandering up these hillsides and you'd

find these huge stones laying there with

all of these images carved into them.

And uh, of course, you know, there's no

funding that's out there. There's not

even a there's not even a police

department out there. So, it's uh it's

it nothing no research is re being done

out there. Um, but it's a fascinating

place as old as time itself. And all of

these people are from like a chapter

before contact period. Um. Whoa. Yeah,

it's fascinating, man. It's just a it's

a very ancient, mysterious, mystical

place. It's it's one of those places

that kind of gives me the feeling that

Peru gives me when I'm out there that

I'm in a very very very old place. And

and of course, you know, the Appalachian

Mountains are the oldest mountain range

in the world. Is there any theory as to

the age of that? Uh well, I think when

you go there, they attribute it to um

they attribute it to a culture that

lived in the area between 100 AD and

1000 AD. But, you know, that's just

totally guesswork. Wow.

Judicula and the Cherokee Indians. Yeah.

Now, the, you know, the the hard part

about the hard part about studying some

stuff with Native Americans in the US is

that there's a lot of like, you know,

modern Native Americans, they're very

prideful about their culture and and,

you know, a little bit of mythology gets

gets mixed in. Like when you go when I

go visit the uh I forget what it what

exactly it's called. Um, but there's a

there's a Native American uh village

that still exists in this area of the

country and it's like operated and it's

kind of a tour place where they take

people through what the cities would

have looked like or what the the towns

would have looked like in the middle of

the rainforest. But the hard part is

when I talk to the representatives

there, uh, which are Native American,

you know, Cherokee people, they'll tell

me, "Oh, yeah, you know, the ancient

people that were here, they used to be

6'5. They were very tall people or

whatever." And there's no evidence

behind that at all. And so it's hard to

like, okay, we have Cherokee bodies. So

are these are these oral memories that

are being passed down through time that

come down to the Cherokee and you know

as a as like a you know a modern-day

American anthropologist, do I brush off

what they say and just be like, well,

you know, they're they're they're

carrying on these myths about their

people. They want to build it up or are

they really holding on to something

that's true? Because um man, I would

love to talk to Graham about this. Okay.

So, you know, one of the biggest things

that refutes I know it sounds like I'm

bouncing all over the place, but one of

the biggest things that that they tried

to use to refute um the Sphinx's age,

you know, about the Sphinx that could

date back to the time of of Leo, but

10,500 years ago or 10,500 BC, 10,500 BC

is they say, "Well, there's no evidence

that you could carry down the knowledge

of constellations that far." You've

heard this before, right? Like, how do

we know that people in 10,500 BC even

recognize the constellation of Leo? And

and how is that knowledge carried down?

Dude, there is evidence of this. Okay,

the squared spiral. Have you seen this

motif anywhere? It's uh we could we

could look it up. Uh Greek meander

pattern, but you'll also see it in

you'll see it in the American Southwest.

You'll see it out in the Mississippian

cultures. You'll see it in Mexico.

You'll see it in South America, Peru.

You'll see it in Greece. You'll see it

in Egypt, Rome. This Yeah. Yeah. This

pattern. So, you know, a lot of times

this um they say that this is like uh

well, when people use the term swastika,

the swastika is just two meandering

patterns or squared spirals that are

laid on top of each other. That's that's

what it is. Yeah. So, it's a squared

spiral. But when you take two of those

and lay them on top of each other, it

becomes a swastika. And you and I

recognize where these meanders connect

because of a certain recent culture that

perverted this symbol and and turned it

into something evil. But this is an

ancient symbol and it's found all over

the world. And uh it even dates back to

Ukraine. You may be able to find this.

There's an ivory uh bone handle in

Ukraine from like 11,000 years ago that

has this squared spiral that that's on

it. So this is 11,000 years old. found

on every continent on the planet. Um, oh

yeah, so it's even found in pottery. Uh,

you can see it in pottery in ancient

China, ancient Japan. It's in Cambodia.

It's all across the ancient world. And I

was asking u uh oh, I know one that we

could look up. Uh, could you look up the

Temple of Meatla in Mexico? So, Temple

of Meatla, and if we look there, you'll

see it all up and down. Now, Temple of

Mitla is a uh shamanic temple. was like

a they think it was like a like a Mecca

site that people would go to. It was

built to last for all of eternity. And

of all the megaliths in all of Meso

America or ancient Mexico and Central

America, this site uses the largest

stones. So each one of these lentils

that you see, these is like one solid

piece of volcanic stone. Uh very very

hard stones. Okay. So you can see the

squared spiral, right? Can you see the

step pattern that leads up to them? And

you could probably find another photo

where you see the step pattern leading

up to the spiral. So, it's like it's

like you're walking up steps into a

spiral and it's this loop that continues

on forever. I have a ton of these photos

on my phone. They're found all over

Peru. There we go. Um, now this is not

quite exactly it. Um, but okay. So, what

this what this really is this step

pattern and this motif of this spiral

here is it's the Big Dipper in the night

sky. You can go look at the Big Dipper

and the Big Dipper changes over the

course of the year. So if you look at it

as though it's not a Big Dipper and you

look at it as though it's a staircase to

a spiral, that's exactly what ancient

people are seeing the Big Dipper as. And

the Big Dipper is spinning in the night

sky throughout the year. So this ancient

symbol is them documenting a

constellation. For for over 11,000

years, human beings have been

documenting a constellation. So, if

you're looking for the proof as to

whether or not people 11,000 years ago

were recognizing a lion in the night

sky, boom, there you go. This is 11,000

years old. What? Yeah. Okay. So, looking

here. So, it's a step up to a spiral. A

step up to a spiral. And dude, it's the

Big Dipper. Just look at the Big Dipper

in the future as though it's this

constellation. And it's the same thing.

Is this a theory that it's a Big Dipper?

Has this been corroborated? This is my

theory. Your theory. This is my theory

and like something I've been studying

for a long time. But there there are

other archaeologists who h they're kind

of have a passive interest in this and

they have said, "Oh, maybe it's the Big

Dipper or something." But these aren't

these then people if I were to go to

them and be like, "Okay, well, you know,

this ivory bone handle in Ukraine goes

back 11,000 years, so it's proof."

They'd be like, "Okay, stop." You know

what I mean? Um, so this is my theory

that I have been studying for a long

time. And everywhere I go in the

Americas, I find that p I find that

spiral pattern everywhere. And I always

ask people, "What does this mean?" Um,

when I'm in the Mediterranean, I'll ask

people, "What does this mean?" And I'm

gonna go to I'm gonna go to Greece at

the end of the year, and I'm gonna ask

because it's all over Greek temples, you

know, and um and all I ever get from

Greek archaeologists is that it's a

river. [ __ ] It's not a river. And

then in Latin America, I get a bit

better of an explanation. And and maybe

this is maybe this is really it. They

think that it's like the they think that

it's like the the step the steps through

life and the and the rejuvenation of

life, right? So it's like it's like the

big dipper has some kind of esoteric

meaning with it. But I I have been

thinking about this and I think that

this the reason that throughout all

these ancient cultures you see this

meander pattern in so many different

orientations is it's documenting it's

documenting the flipping of the Big

Dipper through the night sky throughout

the day. And um and that's that's all

you know I'm trying to explain something

that's 11,000 years. What is the

earliest evidence of the understanding

of the procession of the equinoxes? Oh

god, I don't know. I don't know. That's

that's getting like beyond my level of

of knowledge with

archoastronomy.

Um, some people Grahams theorized that

the Egyptians were aware of it. Uh, I

mean, I don't doubt that they're that

they were. Yeah. Bouval, I think,

believed that or I know for sure John

Anthony West believed that. Mhm. Yeah.

Yeah. I I don't know, man. I mean, um,

the procession of the equinox is it

takes at least what, 12 to 24? It's

either 12 or it's 24,000 years to be

able to 24,000 years, the full cycle. I,

if if we wanted to investigate an

ancient culture that's possible of being

able to document this, it'd be worth

looking into if the Maya were aware.

Let's explain to people what it means.

So, what it means is that the Earth as

it spins, it doesn't spin perfectly.

like there's a pin in the top and the

pin in the bottom and it spins like a

globe. It spins in a wobble and that

wobble is a 24,000year cycle. The

earliest understanding of the procession

of the equinox is typically credited to

Greek astronomer, how do you say his

name? Hipparcus. Oh, yeah. Hipparus.

Hipparus in the second century

B.C.E. 130 B.C.E. I bet you he did it in

Alexandria, too. Hm. Aparus noticed the

position of the equinoxes, the points

where the celestial equator intersects

with the elliptic uh were shifting

westward over time relative to the fixed

stars. He calculated this slow movement

known as procession by comparing his own

observations of star positions with

earlier Babylonian and Greek records

particularly those of Tamarcus

and Aristalis from the 3rd century

B.C.E. Hipparus estimated the rate of

procession to be about one degree every

100 years which is remarkably close to

the modern value uh of approximately one

degree every 71.6 years. There's no

definitive evidence of earlier cultures

fully understanding the procession as a

systematic ast a astronomical

phenomenon. But some scholars speculate

the ancient civilizations like the

Babylonians, Egyptians or Indians might

have noticed relating patterns in star

positions over long periods.

Yeah. Well, and then check this out.

Hipparcus discovery detailed in his lost

work, but referenced by Tommy, the

pharaoh, a pharaoh over Alexandria, uh,

in the Almagus, 2nd century CE. So, this

is happening in the city of Alexandria.

This all this is being studied in

Alexandria's library. Marks the earliest

confirmed understanding of procession in

scientific sense. Dude, that was lost in

in the burning of Alexandria's library.

Yeah. How crazy is that? It's all crazy.

It's it's so fascinating because it's it

it makes sense that that would be

something that everyone would be

studying because it's the most

spectacular thing you could ever see.

Why would you just say, "Oh, it's just

stars." You of course you would It's so

silly. Of course you would. It's they're

so majestic. You would you would have to

be transfixed. You know, you know

something interesting that I was just

reminded of is this meandering pattern.

It continues in the ancient

Mediterranean world. So Greece, uh,

Mesopotamia and Egypt until Alexandria's

library is burned and stops after that.

You see it on the uh you see it on the

uh monument of Augustus uh which is

dates to about 9 BC. Uh but that's for

his death. But Augustus would have seen

Alexandria. He would have been familiar

with these motifs. I believe after that

in Rome we don't see this motif anymore

of the squared spiral in uh Meso America

in Mexico and Central America this

squared spiral motif stops uh with the

burning of the Maya cotices from Diego

danda in like 1574 he gathered all of

the writing in the Maya world together

in the city of what is modern-day uh

Merida and he burned it all up and it

was it was called multiple py so imagine

let's say a py is at least from the

floor to the ceiling stacked with

codeexes like uh like have you ever seen

the sticky notes that are connected on

each side? That's a that's how the Maya

books looked and he burned all that

history. Today we only have three or

four that exist and one of them is like

controversial as to whether or not it's

a forgery. So he destroyed all of the

written history of the Mesoamerican

world in like one fail swoop. And to

give you an idea of just how much it

was, um, when the Spaniards arrived in

the Aztec world, so the Aztec were

standing on the were standing on the

shoulders of giants, being the Maya and

all the other cultures. The Aztecs were

producing

250,000 pieces of paper a year. It's

something like that. It's it's it's an

incredible amount of written knowledge.

And all of that knowledge is burned and

gone. And so, and so, you know, it just

just again when

archaeologists stand behind their

opinions so strongly as to chastise

other people for speculating about, oh,

well, you know, this could be this. It's

like it's so silly because we're we're

disconnected from the ancient world by a

considerable margin. I mean, none of us

really understand what's going on. I was

having a conversation with uh Dr. Dr.

Barnhard, we were at the uh Museum of

Anthropology in Mexico and we're looking

at all these Maya gods up on this mural

and everything in Meso America, whether

it's the Maya, the Mex, the Aztecs, Teot

Bukanos, Zapotex, whatever. It's all

very fierce and dark and uh scary kind

of scary to us. And we're looking up at

it and he's like he's like, you know,

I've always wondered like where's the

love in their religion? Like, you know,

where where are all the doves that you

see like in Christian churches and

stuff? And he was like, he's like, "But

you know, in reality, if we could speak

to them, we would probably be so

embarrassed and shocked at how wrong our

ideas are about who these people were."

And, you know, his his attitude and his

approach to the ancient world. I just

love it because, you know, um he just

presents like the evidence that's

available, gives his idea of what he

thinks the evidence means while also

saying, you know, this is just this is

just my idea from this. We could be

completely wrong and we probably are

completely wrong. You know, think about

like if you died and uh 5,000 years from

now people started going through your

belongings. What would they think of

you? It probably wouldn't be a very good

representation of you. You know, depends

on who's writing the story, right? If

CNN wrote it, it'd be terrible.

You know, it'd be pretty bad. It it's

it's really dependent upon who again is

the gatekeeper of information. Yeah. If

you had a time machine and you could go

and observe undiscovered any point in

history, like you could put put you in

some time bubble where you could just

like be in this

invisible bubble where you could view it

where you're not interacting. You're not

you just watch. Yeah. What time period

and where? Oh god.

I'm not going to say Egypt. I feel like

Egypt is such a like everyone says

Egypt. I would say Egypt. I know. I

know. Um, if I if I if Egypt wasn't an

option, um, but why would you want that

to not be an option? If I gave you a

legit choice, if it was a real thing, if

there was real technology, if they had

developed some sort of a time warp

technology that allowed you to in this

controlled sphere exist for a particular

amount of time, like you have three days

in this area. You you bring food and

water and you just show up. No one can

touch you. No one can see you. You exist

in a time warp inside there, but you

could observe all of it. It's got to be

Egypt. Well, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you

would have to figure out what time

because if you got there and they had

already built it, you're like, "Shit,

god damn it." Yeah. Yeah. Like maybe

like you say, "Let me go 10,000 BC and

you go there and it's already there."

You're like, "Fuck." Uhhuh. Uhhuh. [ __ ]

You go back 20,000 BC. Yeah. You can

only do it once. Like [ __ ] But if you

go back 30,000 BC, maybe there's

nothing. Like um

man, Egypt is a creme de la creme, man.

Yeah, it's it's the it's the most

monumental beautiful like you know when

you try to imagine what it would have

looked like you know if you've seen uh

visual recreations of the Giza plateau

you know uh the the valley temple must

have been absolutely stunning. Okay so

one day when you go to Egypt hopefully

you go this year um when you go to the

valley temple that's the that for me

it's the best thing in all of Egypt. I

think it's I think it's more stunning

what it must have looked like than even

the pyramids themselves. Uh the blocks

are absolutely gigantic. Like one block

is bigger than this whole wall. And um

brought from 500 miles south in in

Azwan. These are the ones with the

cyclopian strangely angled stones like

you see in Peru. And when you walk in,

most people ignore it, but uh the that

floor is a is a calite white crystal

floor. And so when imagine when it was

polished and when it was finished off,

it must have been gleaming. And at some

point in time, there were these uh

diorite uh coffer statues. Maybe you've

seen them before. They're like

impossibly well made out of the hardest

stone in Egypt. The hardest stone in in

Egypt. Um and it's this these black

diorite gleaming polished statues. And

the lentils that go above would have

allowed when the sun, you know, reaches

its like zenith in the sky in the day,

in the middle of the day, it would have

shot through these holes in the ceiling.

And so it would have illuminated the

white floor and you would have had the

solid black uh statues that are that are

shining in the in the sun's light. And

so you're walking in and it's like

glowing inside of the temple. And and

when you walk outside the front door of

the temple, there's a dock and it and

you can see the dock like slopes into

the ground. So the water isn't there

anymore. The Nile is much further to the

east now, but it would have the but the

Nile uh came straight up to the front

step of the of the Valley Temple. So you

so imagine you're like you're going you

know you have someone pushing your

little boat along on a pike in you know

in Egypt and you're you know you're

taking in like uh you know you're taking

in the nature around you and uh and like

the seabirds that are flying over you

and the palm trees that are everywhere

and like imagine the sound of the water

as you're coming up to the temple and

it's this huge temple. It's the it's the

largest building on the planet at the

time, you know, probably other other

than the pyramids themselves. Um, but

and then you step into it and it's it is

the most sacred most impressive thing

that exists on the earth at that time.

No matter if it was made in 2500 BC or

if it was made in 10,000 BC, it's the

most impressive building that exists in

the world at that time. And what exactly

was going on in these buildings, I don't

know. This is this is kind of another uh

you know hot take of mine is man I don't

believe that you know when you see all

these pantheons of of these gods in the

ancient world I do not believe that

ancient people are making all this [ __ ]

up and building all these temples for

these gods that never existed just to

control the masses whatever whatever I

mean it's extensive amount of work all

across the entire world you know the the

Maya are building temples for these gods

these beings that they're that they're

meeting uh the temple of Luxor that

you'll that you'll go to You know that

the story goes that Aman Hoteep built

this last chamber which is made out of

these huge u Almond Hotep thei builds

this last chamber huge megalithic

granite blocks to meet the god Alman

Raw. And I'm standing there inside the

the chamber looking around. He's the

only person supposedly that's allowed

in. That's a story that we know how true

that is. I don't know.

You know, and I'm just thinking, man,

either is it more likely that all this

is made up or is it more likely that

they went to the extent to do all this

because it was all real and they're

really interacting with these beings. in

the most the the most realistic way I

can think of is by uh is by being

involved in like shamanic practices and

hallucinogens and like you know

interacting with things that do not

exist in our 3D plane and um and that

adds to the allore of like when I'm

standing in the valley temple I'm like

what the hell is actually going on in

here at this time. Um so after going

through all that I have to say Egypt. M

you have to as cliche as it might be. My

my second one would be like if I could

be like, "Okay, take me to the height of

Amazonian culture. Just let me see just

how amazing it is." Because, you know,

it really seems like stone architecture

comes out of the Amazon. Now, where Paul

lives, it's all clay on the ground, but

when you get halfway through the Amazon,

you start reaching like granite and

limestone bedrock, and that's on the

eastern side. So, you're in like Guyana,

French Guyana, uh, Brazil, and it's

treacherous places to go through in in

the middle of the Amazon, but I think

that that's where cities in the Amazon

are going to be found one day. And it

was towards the end of Oriana's

expedition, so that's about where he

would have been. Um, and man, I I bet

you there's stuff out there that would

just amaze us. I think it I think the

Amazon is the origin. Just me

personally, I think the Amazon is the

origin of American, you know,

pre-Colombian American the height of

their civilization. I think it's the

origin of their religion and shamanic

practices. I think it spread out all the

way up to Mexico. Um, and you know,

later on the ancient Americans have a

corn god which they call the maze god.

But I think before that they had this

wear jaguar religion where people are

taking hallucinogens and psychedelics.

And so I I think that all the evidence

points towards that the origin of

civilization in the Americas begins in

the Amazon and spreads out from there.

And I would love if a time machine could

pull back that canopy and show me what

the actual height of that was like. It's

just so interesting. It never stops

being interesting. And it's one of those

things. It's a mystery that will never

truly be totally solved because it's not

possible to go back in time. So, we're

always going to have this thing in our

mind like I wonder. And it's such a a

fascinating inclination to sit and just

wonder about the past and to look where

we are now and how ridiculous life today

is. This is what's undeniable. Like,

humans are fools to particularly today.

For sure. And I think one of the reasons

why we're fools is we're denied these

experiences that these people probably

had. We've outlawed them. Yeah, just

like they did in ancient Greece. Just

like they did, I'm sure throughout

history and all these different

cultures, you know. Have you ever heard

the Have you ever heard the the natives

in Papa New Guinea and the songs that

they sing that like emanate through the

the jungle? Have you ever heard this

before? When I when I study I don't

study I only study native people in the

Americas. I got my hands full with that.

I can't really start studying, you know,

like uh, you know, I'm fascinated by the

people that live on Sentinel Island. And

akin to that are the people, the

semi-conted people of Papa New Guinea.

And when you listen to the songs that

they sing, it reminds me so much of what

I heard yesterday and what I've known.

But when Percy Faucet says he he hears

the songs they sing and it reminds him

of like, oh, this is these is this is an

advanced culture. This is something

that's being handed down through time.

It's beautiful. It's timeless. And when

you hear the the the sound of the Papa

New Guinea people singing and the way

they harmonize with each

other, these people are so connected to

the earth that it's the earth singing to

you through them. Does that make sense?

Whoa. Can we hear that? Yeah.

[Applause]

This may not be the one I'm talking

about.

[Music]

It's beautiful though. There's one of uh

there's one of a man. He's right next to

the camera and he's singing and you have

all these people around him and it's

just like stunningly beautiful. Is that

Here it is. Here it is.

[Music]

[Applause]

Wow. It's got some extra uh love on it.

Yeah.

[Music]

I think it's just on loop. 10 hours.

It's a 10 hour. You know, hearing that

makes me like emotional hearing it

because five grams and you listen to

that. It's beautiful, you know. It's

beautiful. And you you look in you look

in his eyes and it's like it's he has

very innocent eyes, you know. It's it's

it's it is the it's the it's the human

embodiment of the planet itself is is

that guy that you're looking at and what

you're hearing. And what's really

fascinated by human cultures is the most

satisfied, least anxious people are

subsistence livers.

people that live off the land. It's so

true. Have you ever seen the Vice piece

um about uh this guy named Hinmo

Heinmo's Arctic Adventure? No. There's a

a great bit a great video piece from

Vice from back in the day uh Vice Guide

to Travel where this journalist goes and

lives with this guy who lives in the

Arctic and he's one of the last people

that's allowed to live off the land and

he's a very intelligent guy who explains

through the course of this like this is

how people are supposed to be living and

he's essentially just hunting caribou

and fishing and he lives like in peace

and harmony and he never he never wants

to live in a city. Like this is a

natural way for us. Does he have a

little daughter with him or a little

girl and he like cuts up the fish and he

hands it to her and they give each other

like an Eskimo kiss? Have you seen I I I

think I don't believe it's that. His

daughter's full grown at the time. Um

but I'm sure there's many people living

like this. But the point is that I think

that if you look at modern society,

we're so anxious and weird and depressed

and all all these things wrong with us.

I think a lot of that is because a we're

disconnected from nature, especially if

you're living in a city. I mean, there's

no more insulation from nature than a

skyscraper. I mean, you're completely

removed from you. You you've covered the

ground in concrete. You're not

interacting with nature at all. Like,

that's why everybody goes to Central

Park. They're like a little piece. So,

give me a little bit of nature, right?

So, you're disconnected from nature,

which I think is a vitamin. I I

genuinely believe it's just like the sun

gives you vitamin D. I think nature

gives you some unmeasured vitamin that

we just haven't figured out yet. And

then we're removed from these ancient

experiences that connected people to the

spiritual world. Yeah. Yeah. Um Yeah.

It's it's so true. I I've been having

these conversations um with my wife

recently. You know, like all of our

friends are are sort of, you know, we're

all kind of newlyweds. Like my wife and

I are about to approach our two-year and

our relationship is is is interesting

because it kind of mimics like like uh

ancient people where you know a man has

got to you know in ancient times the man

would go off at a certain point uh

periodically he and all of his he and

all the other men of the village or the

younger men would go off until they

killed a big animal and they drag it

back and they'd be rewarded by the

gratification of the women that they're

there and then they would play their

part in helping to feed everybody. And

you have this like uh the the woman like

admires the man. The man's helping take

care of her. You have this and then the

men also get their time away to be manly

and be masculine and brave and and um

now we exist in this world where before

I was able to you know quit my job and

pursue this full-time. I was doing like

marketing uh you know to to just to make

ends meet. And I I'm like existing in

this digital world that doesn't even

exist. I produce ads for companies that

don't even have a physical

brick-andmortar store. It's like all

completely made up. And I come home, I

would come home every single day. And I

had no like male role in my little

family. Like my wife is go is in the

middle of dental school. And so we're

both going off and coming back and doing

the same thing every day. And it's like

this unnatural cycle. And you wonder why

like people are so unhappy. And now that

I've been traveling a quite a lot, um,

you know, I go off, uh, you know, I go

off, I travel, I'm able to, you know,

help provide for us. I'm gone, I come

back, and our relationship is strong and

it's intimate and romantic. And she

like, you know, admires that kind of

aspect about me. And I'm like like, oh,

this is kind of this is kind of how this

is a healthy this is actually a healthy

thing for our relationship. And it's

just reminding me more and more of how

this modern world is so dystopian and so

sick and poisonous to our minds. We're

operating in a madeup realm. This, you

know, it's just so much of what we do is

completely made up and and unnatural. We

should be living by a fresh body of

water and you and I should be running

off into the forest and killing

something with our hands or with a bow

and dragging it back and all the women

are, "Yay!" You know, that's what it

should that's what life should be like.

But it's

unfortunately science fiction. I think

you can live in this world and dabble in

that world. Yeah, for sure. That's what

I do. For sure. Yeah. Well, I've seen

that. I mean, you go off on your hunting

expeditions. Those are like to me

spiritual journeys. It sounds sounds

ridiculous, but when I'm in the woods,

like the real woods, when you're in the

mountains in particular, because it's so

unforgiving and so ma majestic,

every part of me just

goes like, "Wow, here we are. Where are

you at when you do that? Well, I really

love Utah. I really love like the the

Wasach Mountains. I love that area. I'm

scared of the Northwest. My My wife

wants to take me to to Montana and go

hiking. I'm like, I'm not going hiking

out in Northwest. There's gri I don't

belong out there. There's grizzly bears.

I mean, those things there's nothing you

can do, man. Nothing you can do. I I'm

okay on the East Coast when it's just

black bears. They're like, you know,

rabbits. But, dude, a grizzly bear.

Yeah. Have you seen the video of the guy

who's up on top of this granite facing

and he goes he's like filming and he

goes he goes there's a young grizzly

bear down at the river below me and he's

up on this granite face and uh and he

was like he's like I'm going to scare

him off and he goes hey bear hey bear

and the bear goes and charges directly

to him and knocks down all the little

trees and it comes up to the granite

face and it can't reach him but I'm like

dude I would never want to go up there.

I I'm I'm You're food. You're food.

Yeah. You're part of the chain and not

the good part. No, you're not you're not

the hunter with the deer. No, there's an

800 pound super predator that can run 40

miles an hour and he's headed right

towards you. Yeah. And if you're a good

shot with a highowered gun, you might be

able to kill it, but you'll be mauled to

death. Yeah. By the time it wanders off

into the forest, you might be able to

kill it. I mean, you really you need

like a large carob rifle and shoot it in

the head. Yeah. You know, and a pistol,

that's the other thing. If you have a

9mm pistol and you shoot a grizzly bear

in the head, it's very likely it's going

to bounce off of his skull, which is so

scary. Oh, it's terrifying. Could you

imagine the uh could you imagine people

trying to navigate into or migrate into

the Americas and they have to deal with

the shortfaced bear and polar bears,

right? The shortfaced bear, which makes

a grizzly bear look like a poodle. It

It's ins It's utterly insane, man.

People lived in a gnarly place in the

US. Like we had we had American lions

that are bigger than Exactly. We had

elephants. We had woolly mammoths. We

had camels here. We had gigantic horses.

We had huge direwolves. We had these

giants giant Oh, there's giant sloth

caves in Nantala and uh you can see them

and they're like carved out and it's

cool because there's multiple layers of

history there. So you have this you have

this megapana ice age history of these

huge giant sloth caves carved out in you

know these prehistoric mountain sides.

Wow. But the Cherokee used those caves

to hide in uh to escape the Trail of

Tears. Wow. Yeah. That's fascinating

stuff up there, man. So you have like

levels of history just in that one area

of the country. If you go out there,

you'll feel like you're in a primordial

place that's, you know, kind of

spiritual. I'm down. Yeah, I'll check it

out. Yeah. Yeah, you definitely have to.

Listen, thank you so much for being

here. I really, really enjoyed this

conversation and I think we could do a

bunch more. So, let's do it again

sometime. I feel like I could have

talked to you for 10 more hours. I feel

like we could, too. Yeah. So, uh, tell

everybody if they want to get into more

of your work. Where where should it go?

Yeah. So, um, everything I do is just

under my name, Luke Caverns. Uh, you

know, Caverns was, uh, just a name that

like my wife and I came up with to use

as like a gnomer because of privacy, but

my my real last name is Reagan. And uh

you know I like I shared I have this

family history and loosely connected to

the presidential family that's like a

different branch of our family from from

Tennessee. Yeah. And um and so I kind of

want to do it for privacy but like

that's impossible. So I just I've just

run with it. And uh but yeah, Luke

Caverns you can find you can find

everything I do under that. And uh you

know I for a long time I thought maybe

I'd specialize in one area, but man, I'm

interested in

in the ancient history of of the entire

world and and uh I'm just always going

to embrace that and explore the explore

the ancient world on foot and um yeah,

I'm glad you're out there, man. I really

appreciate it. Yeah, man. Thank you for

being here. It was really fun. Really

fun. Thank you. All right. Bye,

everybody.

[Music]

Joe Rogan Experience #2328 - Luke Caverns

TLDR

Timeline

Family's Treasure Hunting Origins

The Spark of Interest in Ancient History

Conflicts with Academic Gatekeepers

Zahi Hawass's Arrogance and Dismissal of New Evidence

The Destruction of the Library of Alexandria

The Precariousness of Digital Knowledge

Percy Fawcett's Theories on Amazonian Civilizations

Lidar Discoveries in the Amazon

The Impact of Independent Researchers

The Concentration of Energy in the Nile Valley

Evidence of Potential Transoceanic Contact

The Speaker's Theory on the Square Spiral Motif

The Role of Hallucinogens in Ancient Cultures

Modern Society's Disconnection from Nature

Appalachian Mountains

Audio Summary

Transcript

Detailed Summary