Joe Rogan Experience #2330 Bono - Youtupedia

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Oh, I [ __ ] loved the film. It was

really great. You saw it? Watched it

last night. Yeah. It was cool, too,

because I always feel special when I got

to enter in the password because I know

that nobody else has seen it yet. You

know, I got to enter in the email and

the password and I watched it and I

screen mirrored it on the TV. It was

great, man. And it's it was so uh like

almost like a fever dream. It was wild

like the way you set it up. All black

and white. You get past the first three

minutes. I could even my own mates are

like, "Oh, don't do that."

It's like wow. And it is like a fever

dream. Yes. That opening. But that

really happened to me. So yeah, it was

great, man. It's great. And it's also

like I love the way you did it. Like you

played the beginning of some songs and

you talked about the origin of the

songs. The thing that I have a hard time

believing though is that you weren't a

good singer when you were young. Well,

you know, punk rock, you're a bit of a

shout. You know, that's really what you

do. You just get up there and shout. You

I'm shouting at God. I'm shouting at

everyone. I'm shouting at the band. That

scene in the in when we're doing I will

follow. Yeah, that's really true. So,

I'm there and we're improvising this

song that becomes I will follow. If you

walk away, walk away, walk away. And

it's like this. Wow. We're trying to get

some just do something original and

we're really ripping off the irony is

we're really ripping off Public Image

Limited. This Johnny Rotten became John

Leiden again for this band called Public

Image Limited back in the late '7s. And

I'm singing about, you know, it's a

suicide note really. And I'm singing

about this and they're saying like,

"What's it about?" And I said, "I think

it's this it's this guy who's going to

follow somebody into the grave. You

know, they're going to It's I think it's

about a It's It's a It's a child

following their mother, missing them so

much that he'll follow them into the

grave. Whoa. And then we realize that

our our our rehearsal room, the little

yellow house, is beside the cemetery

where my mother is buried. And I have

never visited her once or talked about

her once. And we're we've been

rehearsing there for months. And it's

funny, you know, you can deny somebody

in conversation, you can deny somebody

to yourself, but in the songs, all that

[ __ ] comes out. Wow. Wow. Yeah. But

thank you for watching it. That's That's

I loved it. Thank you. It It was such an

interesting way you put it all together.

I've never seen anybody do that like

that. like you did

like it's like a documentation of your

career but in this like very unique way

with like talking about things and

explaining these moments and then the

music plays. It's and it's all black and

white. It was really cool. Yeah, there's

a there's a sort

of black and white lends it a kind of

clarity. I did this series of shows in

the the Beacon uh theater in New York

and and it was going so well we thought

we should record it. I will tell you the

night before we opened our show in New

York, my Mrs.

Ally said, "I don't think you should do

this. Just please please do not do this

to yourself in front of, you know, a New

York crowd. Cancel it now. do what most

people do on a book tour, get somebody

to interview them and just they'll come

anyway. Everyone will be happy. And I

don't know, I just went for once. I I

didn't take her sage advice. And I I did

it. And the difference was with an

audience, it was funny. And she was

like, "Oh, that's the bit I didn't get

in the rehearsals. It's funny." Oh. So,

what was she thinking? It was I thought

it was dull, self-indulgent. Here you

are. I mean all these things are a

version of let me here's another great

thing about me. No, I I mean it is a I

was calling it a memewir me what I wrote

myself. It's the memoir and it is look

there's something narcissistic and but

it's it's your material you know that's

what you get your you know your it's not

just your body your psychology is the

canvas and you know I grew up John

Lennon you know the Beatles were

everything for me and you know John

Lennon made a sort of performance art

out of his wedding to Yoko and he did a

bed in for peace and he was ready to

look ridiculous for peace and you know I

do ridiculous is quite well, I'm told.

So, that was my definition, you know, of

of art really. Yeah. Was to just just go

out there. But the thing that being in

you two, it was just given me

everything took away, if it took away

anything, was, you know, people don't

come along to our shows for a belly

laugh. You know what I mean? Right.

Right. So, as a comedian,

you understand that, you know, it's it's

like I,

you know, I wrote this line. I came out

of nowhere. I haven't put it in a song

yet, I don't think. But, you know, I

think it's um laughter is the evidence

of freedom. And I don't talk I don't

trust people talk about freedom now. I

want people to be free. If you are if

you talk be it then be it. Yeah. And and

so I wanted to be that on stage. I

wanted to be loose. I wanted to be

myself. I wanted to own up to the

ridiculousness of my life. As I've just

explained, the madness of my family, but

turns out it's everyone's family is a

little opera. And it is a bit of a soap

opera, but it's also also a a real

opera. These are big feelings. you know,

you're going after your dad like you're

like a young what, you know, elk is a

romantic word for it, but it's, you

know, you're just taking them on. Yeah.

And this poor man is just he's lost his

his wife. He's trying to bring up two

kids. I'm just an obnoxious kind

of thing who some somehow

psychologically blames him for the death

of my mother. Because as Jim Sheran says

to me, it doesn't have to be actually

true to be psychologically

true. And that kids feel all these

feelings, you know, they don't have to

be logical. And and I went after my dad

and

I by playing him every night in in the

Beacon Theater and around the world, I

actually learned

to to love him. Uh, I learned to like

him. Actually, I always loved him, but I

learned to like him. That was He made me

laugh more. So, I got humor. Humor was

the gift from that show. And And the

humor was evident with the audience

there.

Yeah. But not evident when my business

came, which is why she wanted to pull

the plug. Well, rehearsals are hard.

It's also hard when someone is too close

to you. They're there with you every

day.

Like this is true with comedy as well.

Like if someone sees your act too many

times, like if someone's traveling with

you, like if my wife went to see my

shows all the time, there's parts of it

she'd be like, "Oh, don't do that. Oh,

don't do this. Oh, like that's not like

you get too close to it. Like she's too

close to you." But to see it with fresh

eyes, like to see it in front of that

audience, the joy that they have when

the music starts playing, when some of

the songs that they love, it's amazing.

Like you could feel it in the show. It's

like the the pure joy when they get so

cuz the people that came to see it were

hardcore fans. Well, the one what

happened was Andrew Dominic, Australian

director, and he did some of the the the

shots without any audience, just he

cleared them out on a day off. And then

some of them came in which were hardcore

fans as you say. And that was in a way

that was that was that was the most

terrifying. Um because I as a

performer I'm drawn to spontaneous acts.

That's what when we started out as a

band, I was attracted to performers who

I thought might leave the stage, right,

and follow me home, mug me or, you know,

you know, tell my fortune or, you know,

whatever. Wild people. Well, just Yeah.

I mean, and I'm still attract Iggy Pop

when I was growing up was the, you know,

Patty Smith. I Patty Smith used to enter

the stage elbowing her way through the

crowd. Myself and Larry Mullen, drummer

in two. We we left stage one night in a

like when we were like 21 20 years old,

elbing our way through through the crowd

to get out. Just got into a taxi in

London, [ __ ] off and and we felt a

liberation. You breaking the fourth wall

is been everything for our bands. trying

to smash it by surfing it. Um, you know,

by by jumping into the crowd. I had the

um preposterous moment of going into a

crowd in the in Los Angeles, I forget,

the forum or somewhere like

that with the white flag, right? The

nonviolent white flag. the same flag

that I'm still on about the flag of

surrender right in that

show but back then I'm 23 or whatever

and I'm going into the crowd and I see

people who are you know pulling at me

and all that and next thing I I'm

throwing a punch somebody in our own in

our own audience that's how much

nonviolence meant to me you that you

know but I I'm a I'm attracted to feral

performers I suppose there's a word for

it. It's just it's it's you're in it and

you're not fully in control of it,

right? And Mark Ryland is a great one.

Daniel D. Lewis walked off stage one

night, saw a ghost of his father rumor

had it when he was playing Hamlet. But

yeah, so having the crowd in who knew

what was going to happen, that unnerves

me a bit because I how do I surprise

them? Turns out by making I I became a

sitdown comic. Is that if you're a

stand-up for a minute a minute? I was a

sit down comedian. Well, what you were

doing and what I think what you're

saying that you're attracted to is

something that's not contrived.

Something that's pure. It could be

messy. Could be wild. It could be, you

know, Patty Smith elbowing people or you

running through the crowds. There's it's

it's real. And there's so much in this

world that's not real. There's so much

that's manufactured. There's so much

that's produced and run through a focus

group. And there's so there's so much

that doesn't resonate like you don't

feel it as a piece of art. You don't

feel it as like a real person pouring

out their emotions and their soul. But

great music, you feel it. It gets into

you. It gets into your cells. You know,

it's a and no one can figure out how it

works or why it works or why this does

and this doesn't and why does Johnny

Cash have such a [ __ ] cool voice.

Like it's what is it? What what is it?

Like but that there's something about

real that's just it's like a vitamin.

It's like going out in the sun when it's

been raining like ah like you you soak

it in. Yeah, it is. You know, I mean,

you can there's pretentious ways to

describe and then people say it's we we

first sang to each other before we

spoke, you know, like like bird song. I

don't know who said that. It's probably

on drugs, but but could have been a

scientist and um anthropology might

suggest we certainly the goats on you go

back to Greek tragedy, you had a drum

and a voice. So, it's very primal. Yeah.

And and there is it is the language of

the spirit. It we

we it it is somehow there is worship

involved whether it's God, nature,

money, a extraordinary woman has just

walked across the street. But it seems

to be that music is where we are

creatures of

uh awe. Yes. And and wonder and and and

you know, you mentioned Johnny

Cash, I had I had the blessing in my

life of of getting to know him. And as a

believer, I don't know if you know, I

I'm a believer. I'm I'm just not a very

good one. But he there was no not a

pious bone in his body. And and I

learned that about the company he would

choose. He didn't like he he got nervous

around people who were too

self-righteous. And he had this huge

spirit in him, you know, prayerful

spirit. Myself and Adam Clayton were

were um driving through America, I think

around the time of the Joshua Tree,

and I'd met Johnny couple years. He

said, you know, I found out where he

where he lived. He had a zoo in

Nashville. He had a house in Nashville.

And we go into to to meet June and his

Mrs. and and Johnny. And and he shows us

this table's filled with plates of like

I'm like, "Wow, we're coming. We're just

the two of us." She said, "No, honey,

that's my cookbook. I'm just doing a

photo shoot for my cookbook. We're in

here, you know, we're having a So, we go

into their kitchen and we sat there,

myself and Adam, and uh

and Johnny goes, "Shall shall we pray?"

And uh Adam's wasn't a praying type at

that at that time, but he was like,

"It's Johnny Cash." So, you know, you

have to pray. We all held hands,

whatever. And Johnny Cash made this

beautiful poetic blessing. And I I just

thought like, wow, of course he is

touched. And then he just turned to Adam

and just goes, "Sure miss the drugs

though." And Adam

just fell in love with him, you know,

because he couldn't be pious, right? He

just he had to be himself. Yeah. Um

years later, if it's years later and we

really

Oh, wow. There you go. Oh, that's so Oh

my god. There it is. That's Adam there.

Yeah. Yeah. He looks like he might have

had a few tequilas and and I don't know,

but Oh, wow. And I'm giving it the arty

poetic face. I am a p like you are. And

um I

call I heard I heard he was

um I heard he was in trouble. He was was

very

ill years later than this. And I called

uh I called up

and and June answered the phone. Excuse

the poor Texas accent, all you Texans

out there. But she was like, or

Nashville in her case. She was like,

"Oh, Bo, wow. Thank you for calling.

It's so good to hear from you. How's

Dublin? How's Alley? How's the

Burlington? This is a hotel, right?" And

I'm like, "Great." and we're talking,

you know, phrases with with uh with

June. She said, "What's going on with

this?" And I'm going, "What's going on?"

I said, "Look," eventually I said,

"Look, June, I'm just I'm just calling

because I heard John wasn't well and I

just I just want you wanted him to know

and that we're thinking about him." She

said, "Oh, honey, we're in bed. He's

right beside me." And he hands me the

phone or she hands him the phone. He

goes, "Sorry about that.

And I'm fine. And uh and bless her. Um

actually June passed away first

and and Johnny called Rick Rubin and

those American recordings were were a

result of a conversation he had with

Rick Rubin where he said, "Please will

you work with me because if you don't, I

will die." Wow. And that's what if you

hear those American recordings

um amazing version of 9in nails um hurt

hurt did a version of one also

to pesh mode's personal Jesus I mean

it's just what a voice

are you a fan of of of of Johnny Cash

what's what's your I used to have a dog

named Johnny Cash

does the dog bite no he's not anymore

he's dead he was he didn't bite when he

was alive he was a nice dog it's just

have I had a habit of naming my dogs

after famous singers. Wow. We have a dog

called Lemie. Oh, wow. Named after Lei

from Mother. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah.

It's a girl though. I think she resents

it.

Yeah. I had a dog named Frank Sinatra

and uh Marshall is named after Eminem.

Oh man. Well, they're two incredible

people. Um don't get me started on on

Frank Sinatra because um How long is

this, by the way? The as long as we want

to go. Well, no, because why? Well, just

Frank, if there's two questions, one of

them shouldn't be Frank Sinatra because

I I just I can go on and on on I learned

so much from him and I got to know him

and as bizarre as that sounds,

um he's such a name dropper, Frank. Um,

no, but uh I did

and probably if you're interested in

singing, I could tell you one miracle

that I learned from Frank Sinatra, which

is a version of of my

way and the original version, you know,

it's a boast and years later he sang it

and I have a copy of it. It's

um and Pavarati stars in the film as you

know I I play him for for a moment but

it's a version of my way with I mean

Pavarati is the greatest singer on earth

but shouldn't sing in English friends I

do it now you don't want you don't want

that and so I have a version of it with

without the greatest singer in the

history of the world Pavarati on it it's

just Frank

singing 20 years after he'd sung My Way

as a boast. Same key, same text, same

arrangement and now it's an apology.

Wow. And that's a that's a thing about

singing and Johnny Cash had that and you

know I I I wish I aspired to the place

when my voice to try and answer your

first question when I become a singer

that can do that. Sinatra, most people

don't realize, had a completely

different voice when he was younger. His

voice when he was younger, was very

high-pitched and beautiful and had so

much flexibility to it and so much tone.

And then probably all the cigarettes and

Jack Daniels over the years sort of

hardened his voice. M skinny kid. He he

used to he used to swim underwater to ex

to get his lung expanded so he could get

those bigger bigger bigger. Yeah. And we

have his mug shot out there. He got

arrested. He was like 125 pounds. Wow.

Yeah. He got arrested for um what was

the term this seduction? I think it was

seduction. I think he seduced a married

woman. Yeah. Oh my lord. Yeah. There he

is. Oh, look at that. Well, he said I'm

the only He said you're the only I don't

know if he said cat. He said I certainly

didn't say dude. He said you're the only

something with a who wears an earring

that I'm ever going to

like. You're the only cat with an

earring that I'm never going to. And and

I did I had a if we're going to talk

about singers, you have to talk about

Sinatra. I had extraordinary times with

him. Um, he used to send us sent me

gifts every year. I have a gold and

sapphire Cartier watch he sent me. Oh,

wow. With with Francis Albert on the,

you know, got

um just every year he would send stuff.

And because we did a a duet together on

his first duets album, I've got you got

you under my skin. Um although our we

had a our management received I hope

this is not I'm not being I'm in awe of

Japan so don't please don't take this as

a as a as a as a as a as a cruel joke

but we did get from a a um it was a it

was a fax back then from Nip on EMI

saying we hear that Bono has done a duet

with a Mr. Frank Sonalta called I've Got

You Under My Chicken. And that's just

the great Austin translation the great

surrealist anthem of all time.

Um but yeah, for me that was a an

unusual relationship and I if I asked

myself

why I would go after

these great singers that perhaps people

of my own generation had moved on from

but I hadn't.

There was a part of me that wanted the

blessing of an of the older generation

and probably the male. I didn't really

by now the bit of age I realized I

didn't have the sense to go after the

same with women but I was looking for my

father in them you know whether it was

Willie

Nelson you know whether you know Bob

Dylan Frank Sinatra Pavar all these

people I mean

I I would they I kind of I became their

students really and the band would be

like yeah And and I'm going yeah and

there's so much for me to learn from

these people. So much for all of us to

learn. These are extraordinary for a

reason. Sinatra

had, you know, incredible sense of humor

and and great timing. He what I learned

from him

was

he he read the the the the text of the

song like an actor. So he would learn it

as an actor would learn a part. Then he

would on the piano he'd kind of roughly

with his, you know, pianist, he'd figure

out where where to be in the bar and all

of that. And then when he went into the

orchestra to meet them, you know, Nelson

Riddle or whatever, you actually hear

him, you hear Frank Sinatra hearing the

song in its full arrangement for the

first time as he's singing it. And

that's it's fresh paint, you know. It's

like any painter will tell you that's

just the it's like Francis Bacon. It's

just that first stroke or first touch

football, the great players where the

ball lands at their feet, they don't

stop it and pass it. They they they pass

it as they stop it. It's it's it's

really a very high level of of artistry

and and he had that. I learned that from

him. I learned lots of other things. I

also tried to drink with him um on a few

occasions which did not work out well uh

for me. Was it surreal when you were a

young man and you were just starting to

achieve success to encounter these

people that were essentially heroes and

be embraced by them and hang around

them? You know, like a lot of people

feel imposttor syndrome, like they feel

just it's bizarre to be around these

legendary human beings. Like they're

right there. Like I I I still kind of

get weirded out by it. Even when I met

you today, I'm like, "Oh, that's Bono."

Like it's still weird, you know? It's

still weird to meet people that are like

hugely famous. And when you were a young

man, when when you two was just blowing

up, was it strange that the transition

like to accept the fact like this is

where we are. we belong here. But well,

you you

you got it right the first time. There

is a part of you that doesn't think you

belong here, right? And then when you're

younger, you you you're not admitting

that to

yourself. And I have a I have a few

annoying more than a few annoying

aspects depending on who you're talking

to. But if I have an annoying gene,

um, part of it is when I'm at my most

vulnerable, I'm I give it the most

swagger. Ah, so we were playing the

Super Bowl. We were walked on just after

9/11, big emotional

moment. And

we're you got 8 minutes, whatever, to

switch over. And I've got my ears in

because the only way I'm in touch with

what's with with what's going on. And

we're walking through the crowd. We've

got the crowd on the on the pitch. I

think one of the first times that was

ever done.

and and somebody goes, "Yay!" and they

and I can feel my ear come out. And that

will mean I'm all

fair. And if you look at the film as

I've had to of us walking up to get on

stage, I am giving it so much chin, you

just go, "Who is that obnoxious Irish

[ __ ] what? Where does he get that

attitude?" Here it is right here. Oh,

there it

is. I think I'm singing there. So, it's

if you just go back a little bit, you'll

get the real That's the chin. No, no,

just before there. But, but

uh but look, not a care in the world.

And that's I mean, [ __ ] is a word

for it. Yeah. Swagger is another word

for it. It's a shield. It's a shield.

Yeah.

And as I get

older,

I, you know, part of the film was taking

off my armor and just dropping the

sword, dropping the shield, taking it

off. And now in that moment, you wake

up. It's a bit like the dream where

you're naked in front of the whole

school and it's really cold and and

and then you realize yeah your life as

you are realizing yourself

now oh how did this happen to me and and

how did I get to meet these

extraordinary people and so it's that's

why I wrote the book surrender that's

why I did it but because it was just

starting came to realize when I was

younger I was like yeah you know uh Bob

Dylan once asked us I was 24 and he says

uh he was recording there I was going to

interview him and he said you want to go

on stage or whatever and do a song and I

said well he said leopard skin pillbox

hats amazing song I said oh look the

lyrics too I and I've been learning to

improvise as a singer and

Um, and I uh I went out on stage and he

said, "Do you know blowing in the wind?"

I said, "I probably got that one down."

But I didn't. Oh. And I just walked out

on stage

and I could see it was at home crowd

Ireland people. Oh, wow. One of ours is

up there with Bob Dylan. Wow. Oh, it's

Bomber. Wow. Okay. And he's gonna sing.

Oh my god. He can't. Oh. Oh, exchange

the melody. Well, exchange of words and

you could just see I mean go down in

flames and afterwards I see Bob and I

said look I'm sorry about that just it's

just the way we've been working at the

moment just kind of improvising stuff

and he was like it's okay you know

everything I I make them up all the time

and he was generous about it nothing's

fixed in time something like that that's

a great Bob Dylan impression

one of my favorite moments in the film

was when your bandmates were concerned

that Pavarati was going to show up with

a camera crew and he showed up with a

camera crew.

He did one of the It was just funny. It

was like a It was a really welltimed

moment like and when you said it on

stage it was so well timed because it's

like here you're honoring this man who's

like this incredible fantastic singer

but your bandmates they've got a good

instinct like this is going to be a big

press hop as well like this is part of

the reason why he wants to do this and

then that's not going to be fun because

it's going to be weird and then boom.

Yeah. one of the great one of the great

arm wrestlers um emotional arm wrestlers

of all time. He it's interesting that

there was a generosity there

which which which he wanted opera

because opera was kind of the punk of

its time. Classical musicians look down

on opera, you know, these are stories

from the street. They're they're too

accessible, you know, and Oh, yeah.

Yeah. That's crazy. opera was much

rougher and and he instinctively

knew and he was constantly trying to

make relationships that would cross the

divide and and make sort of opera

popular. And so to the point where yeah

he did he used to call our house and say

you know at first it was with me but

then when he would haunt our housekeeper

Theresa and say like is God at home will

tell God to he's late on the song or you

know he do this kind of carry on and and

I again this these figures in in my life

I knew that I was in, you know, on

sacred ground when I was near him. I

knew this, but the band, they didn't

have

the didn't have the relationship with

opera. They Well, actually, Edg's dad

was into opera, but my dad was it was it

was I I was

using Luchiano Pavarati to get to my

dad. That was the real thing. And so as

you see in the film, I I play my my

father just by turning my head. Yeah.

And I become him and and and I was

trying to impress him. I'd be in

Finnegan's pub where we'd be sitting not

speaking to each other and and and I'd

try something and I go, "Um, what do you

think about uh Luchiano Pavarati call

him?" And he'd go, "Did he get a wrong

number?" You know, be all that.

And and

so yeah, there was an emotional

throughine because our house was an

opera. Unfortunately, my dad was going

on in Hinn's life was

oporatic. Um but it's also funny. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's also this you you are

both celebrating the brilliance of this

incredible singer and also you're you're

taking the piss out of this whole cult

of celebrity thing that comes along with

it. Yeah. And Princess Diana the the

best that thing with your dad and

Princess Diana was hilarious. So because

Edg's edge is that is is Edg's mother

and father from Wales.

So to you know so we're with Pavarati in

modern I think it was and and he's so

the princess of Wales is meeting the

great tenor and he is offered to meet

you know anyone who wants you know Ed's

family because they're from Wales to

meet the princess of Wales and he says

to me look do do does your dad want to

go and I of course know the reason I

know I I know the answer and the reason

for the answer, but he says, "Well, just

just ask him." So, I ask him. I just go,

"Dah, listen. You wouldn't want to uh go

meet Lady Dye, you know, the princess."

What? What? H Why would I want to meet a

member of the British royal family? That

that's like asking me, "Do I want to

meet the winner of the lotto?" And I'm

like, "Okay, got it. Got it. Got it."

And then later she comes into our

dressing room and melts him just by

reaching her hand at how do you do? And

he's like,

"Oh, very well. Thank you." Uh um and as

I say, eight 800 years of oppression

gone in a second. And if you wonder

about um the reasoning for having a

royal family and a lot of Irish people

do there I I I would say is that's the

reason right the weight of it the weight

of it overcame him. Yeah. Yeah. It's a

very bizarre relationship though you

know like I'm one quarter Irish and I

the relationship between Ireland and

United Kingdom and England and it's like

it's it's complicated. Were you were

you I've read that you got into martial

arts because you felt picked on at some

point. Is that true? Yes. Yeah. So, you

don't like bullies? No. No. No. I don't

like that at all. It's the weakest

inclination of the human spirit, you

know, to to pick on the weak. It's it's

terrible. It's a it's a terrible

instinct that humans have from probably

from the time where you had to ostracize

weak people because you lived in a tribe

of people barely surviving and you

couldn't tolerate any weak links in the

chain. I mean that's essentially

probably where it came from. It probably

came out of a survival Darwinian thing.

Yes. Where everyone was barbarians and

you had to force people to be the

hardest version possible because

otherwise the genes wouldn't survive.

Yeah. And the survival of the fittest.

It's

Yeah. which is the world we live in.

Yeah. I mean, this is one of the things

that attracts me to Christianity is the

idea of the first will be last, the last

will be first is so radical. Mhm. And

it's the literally the opposite of the

survival of the fittest. Right. But

America, why I love America is is it has

I mean the British Empire bullied it and

it stood up. I was we were coming here.

I was asking someone in the car about

the the Declaration of of Independence

and you know how many Irish signatures

there were. Wasn't that many I can't

remember whether but they were all

committing treason. They were putting

their lives, they were pledging their

lives, their fortune and their sacred

honor. So America, the very essence of

America is this idea of sticking in to

the bully. Yeah. And and I know America

can be a bully. We all we have our

moments and all and all that, but it's

the essence of who you are and and

happened again with the the geyser with

the tash. Um

the ger that's a great calling Hitler,

you know, but yeah, you know, you

weren't you weren't having it, right?

and and I you know as a as a as an

activist which we can talk about later

but the you know I remember going to

it's only a few hours from here but was

in um Lincoln Nebraska and

um Warren Buffett came to one of our

it's called Heart of America tour. We're

raising awareness on this pandemic, this

AIDS pandemic that has killed just, you

know, 30 million people at this point.

And why might America be interested? And

I'm very Irish and very given a lot of

that. And afterwards, I ask the sage of

Omaha for for any

advice. and and he gives me two pieces

of advice,

but probably well the one was don't ask

people to do something simple because

they won't trust you. He said ask them

to do something complicated. What do you

mean by that? Well, I said he said,

"What are you asking people to do here?"

And I said, "Well, they're I'm asking

them

to we're asking them uh the one campaign

we're we're asking them to send, you

know, a note to their local

congressperson." He said, "No, no, no,

no. Don't do that. Too simple. Make them

do something more difficult and they'll

trust you. Maybe 10 postcards. It's

harder to do." I was like, "Okay." And

anything else? And he he said something

which really changed my life and changed

my conversation with this country of

yours. He said, "Don't appeal to our

conscience of America. Don't do that.

Appeal to the greatness of America and

you'll get the job done. Americans want

to be great. That is true. I think it is

true. And cuz Ireland, we work with

guilt. You know, you can guilt people.

It's a lot of countries. You can work

them just, you know, but Americans not.

Give them the chance to be the cavalry.

Yeah. And they'll I mean Omaha Beach,

the heroism of Omaha Beach, the lives

poured out, you know, and to to save

Europe from from tyranny. And that's who

America is. And you know I I gave you

the Joshua

tree

because I you know it's not just as an

Irishman but probably more

because I as an Irishman fell under the

spell of

America even as kids. you know, coming

here, um, a lot of the cooler bands

would just play the coasts, you know,

the cooler UK bands or European bands,

but I wanted I wanted to be all over

America. I mean, we played we opened for

a wet t-shirt competition in in Dallas.

We year was this?

81. Uh, 21. Wow. We we

we in a Austin I don't know if if anyone

can remember it was it was it was called

the club club foot. It was a bad pun,

but there was no AC and I remember it

was a tin roof and for Irish people, we

were just being boiled. But I have

really really great memories of just

busing it through this sort of mythical

landscape. You know, there was there's

nowhere nowhere in this country I would

want to fly over, but I do now. you

know, he got the the plane, he had the

this, but I I just remember

thinking this is there's so many

Americas. Yes. But the the mythology of

America, I was reading, you know, Sam

Shepard. I was reading, you know, on the

road. I was reading, you know, all these

great writers and just opening up my

imagination. That's where the Joshua

Tree came from.

And yeah, it's it's it's a it's it's a

mythology that then can you

imagine I get

to discover that in my

case it's not just a

mythology it I was part of something

that

was

extraordinary. So former governor of of

this

Texas George W. Bush,

conservative, starts to lead the world

in the fight against the AIDS pandemic,

the greatest health crisis in 600 years

since the bubanic plague. And I'm like,

people say that's impossible. It's just

not going to happen. And he does. and

becomes a bipartisan thing and 26

million lives are saved. So, it's

strange the way you see things. I had

this I wasn't a naive

[Music]

um sense of America, but it

was a sense that

everything could be possible here, that

there was

somehow the landscape of America was was

a little more magical than than

everywhere else. And that it wasn't just

a country America. It was an idea. Yes.

Yeah. I at at its greatest that is what

America is. At its greatest, it's an

idea. And it's an idea that was like I

said was founded with the the concepts

behind the Declaration of Independence.

And those those men who wrote that, the

men who signed the Bill of Rights was

they were so young. They were so young.

Some of them were 18 years old at the

time, which is so crazy. Jefferson was

32 or 33 when he wrote that. He's an old

cajger. I mean, that's wild. And then,

by the way, years

later, he's in France. I think he's in

B. And he loved wine. And this emerged.

I found this out because I saw a

signature in in a in a book. I was on

some tour. I like to drink um red wine.

And I've never been to Bordeaux in my

life, but I I went with some people who

knew their way around wine, and they

asked me to sign a book in this

particular um uh vineyard, posh kind of

vineyard, but this was across the road

from the big name sort of thing. And I

asked I said, "Can I see the first

book?" There's Thomas Jefferson's name

in the first book. I thought, "Wow, this

guy's dreaming up America on some very

fancy red plunk." Yeah. Not plunk,

actually. some really there's just but

you know I know there's lots of

contradictions

in in America and I know there was

slavery still and that he had slaves and

I

understand but I'm encouraged

that

America perhaps

doesn't exist yet that it's still been

written if you think about it as a song

you think about it as a piece of music.

It's not finished. Right. Right. It's

still being written. They started at

those signatures. Yeah. You and if

you'll let people like me stay, you you

know, we're still, you know, you're

writing it. I'm I'm I'm not writing. I'm

the annoying fan who follows America

into the bathroom and and with the liner

notes, which are the declaration going,

"Didn't you say this here?" And get out.

Who followed me into the bathroom? It's

like

but but I yeah I I I like the idea that

it's that this

is far from finished this composition.

Yes. And for some people the America

that is available to you and me doesn't

exist yet but it will and it can. And uh

and yeah, we hope that every election

cycle like this this will be the one

that finally makes us what we truly

believe we are. But the the country is

just so co-opted by this. First of all,

you have this genuine issue with the

fact that it's essentially a popularity

contest, right, to see who gets to be

running the government. You have a

popularity contest. It's fueled entirely

by special interests and the

military-industrial complex and

pharmaceutical drug companies and it's

just it's a it's all it's all the

opposite of of an authentic song, right?

The thing about an authentic song where

it makes your [ __ ] goosebumps stand

up. You're like, "God damn." You think

it's an AI come? Can I tell you a story?

Um, a long time ago, probably 25 years

ago, I was on mushrooms with a friend of

mine and we were laying on the side of

this hill overlooking this canyon and we

played in God's country. Oh, wow.

And it was just the the the peak of the

mushrooms and the songs, the melody, the

way that song hit, it just it gave me

this insane appreciation for things like

at that m was like this very

unique fusion of the beauty of the music

and the love of the experience. It's

like the mushrooms bring out this like

loving like communal quality like

happiness and and joy and just lying in

this field looking up at this canyon and

hearing that song. It was like this is

what what music does. It takes these

moments and wherever they're at, it

breaks them through the membrane into

this new place. Like this moment, it

broke through this membrane and brought

me to this. I think about it all the

time. I think about that particular

experience all the time. We need the

line in that when I'm singing it is um

is a line that doesn't just apply to

America but applies to us personally.

um wherever you are is you know we need

new dreams tonight and you can't be

living on we've got we can't be living

on secondhand dreams and that's I think

the renewal

I think is what what we're all looking

for and and

and yeah it's it's it's something to be

protected and and I not protected That

sounds like it's it's like I think

you're right, though. I But I I think I

I think America is more vulnerable now

than it's ever been. It feels like

America's fallen out of love with the

rest of the world. I don't think the

world wants to fall out of love with

America. It it just feels like and you

know I've 20 25 years and and I'm just a

tiny cog in I suppose you know people

look at personalities or you know uh

even luminous ones or ones that have

ideas way above their station and think

that will you know that that might

change things but it's social movements

always change things And what happened

back then with with that Heart of

America tour was was

mindblowing because I learned a few

things that I wasn't expecting. Like I

had grown up with a couple of more than

a few bumps

um with evangelicals, you know, it's

like whoop, you know. It's like you know

how do you you can't approach the

subject of God without metaphor right so

literalism

is by its nature anti- metaphor and you

know Jesus all we know is that he spoke

in parables because they're not literal

how do you explain these as poetry is

music and I found it really difficult to

be around evangelicals because they were

so you know just literal

And then on that same tour where I met

Warren Buffett, I end up at a college

called Wheaten College, which is like a

big in Chicago. It's a big evangelical

thing. And they were like they were

really helpful and they were like I

realized that these were kind of and

this is not to be at all dismissive of a

of some incredible people, but it was

like I felt there was there were sort of

narrow-minded

sort of what would I say just sort of

narrow the the vision if I could just

open the aperture of their vision just a

little bit wider. Yeah. That they could

be the most incredible force for good

because they just worked harder. They

didn't tell lies. They they were just

great people. And I think they they led

part of this movement that that ended up

saving 26 million lives, you know, and

called PEPAR that George Bush started

and Obama

continued. Then I go to Catholics. I'd

end up in Notre Dame. I had a few

bruises with the Catholics over the

years, too. And I'm meeting these people

and they're like, "No, no, we're we we

we want to we we we believe in the value

of human life and we if we can do this,

how much does this cost?" And I'm like,

"Well, you know, all of foreign aid is

probably just less than 1% of government

spending, but the part that keeps people

alive is is half of that." So, it's like

half a percent. Now, it's not my money.

It's up to you if you want to do that.

But they did. And lots of people came

together. It was priests and punks, you

know, it was the

wildest collection of people and and

just recently like in in the last three

months, and this is not about politics

because I've worked with conservatives,

I've worked with liberals. I I don't

care, you know, I don't have those. I'm

Irish. I don't have a chance to vote.

But all of that was torn down without a

heads up, without any notice

because people thought foreign aid was

like 10% of the budget or 20% and it was

doing things that it shouldn't have been

doing. And I'm sure there was some

waste, but I can tell you as a person

who who saw what the United States was

doing around the world and saw

this this I saw

America display itself at its finest.

And I remember being in the Oval Office

with President Bush and and had and

these anti-retroviral drugs. I said,

"Paint them red, white, and blue, Mr.

President. these are the best

advertisements for America there'll ever

be. And he's looking at me thinking I'm

taking a piss, but I'm not. And he

wasn't, as it turns out. And and he he

spoke about the the least of these,

which is a wild concept. I don't know if

you know this, but it's like

the it's uh it's in Matthew, I think it

is. It's it's

it's the only time that um Jesus speaks

of judgment. It's not like what's going

on in your pants. It's not like what's

going over here or over there. The first

time Jesus Christ speaks

in kind of force of judgment is the way

we treat the poor, the poorest of the

poor. And he says, "Well, in the way

that you're treating these the least of

of them, the the sick, the blind, the

people who are suffering from

malnutrition, that's how you treat me. I

am

them." And so now when we cut to the

people like you went to Boston

University, um you taught at Boston

University. I taught martial arts there.

Yeah. So, so just recent

report, it's not proven, but the

surveillance enough suggests 300,000

people have already died from just this

cut off, this hard cut of USID. So,

there's food rotting

in boats, in warehouses. There is this

this this will will [ __ ] you off. This

will not you will not be happy. No

American will. But there is I think it's

50,000 tons of food that are stored in

Djibouti, South Africa, Dubai, and wait

for it, Houston, Texas. And that is

rotting rather than going to Gaza,

rather than going to Sudan because the

people who know the codes or for the

warehouse are fired. They're gone. And

so this I don't know. I just it's and

what do you think? What what what is

what is that? That's that's not America,

is it? Well, they're throwing the baby

out with the bath water. Right. Right.

This is the problem. The problem is for

sure there have been a lot of

organizations that do tremendous good

all throughout the world. Also, for sure

it was a moneyaundering operation. For

sure there was no oversight. For sure.

billions of dollars are missing. In

fact, trillions that are unaccounted for

that were sent off into various they

they don't even know where because

there's no receipts. The way Elon Musk

described it, he said if any of this was

done by a public company, the company

would be delisted and the executives

would be in prison. But in the United

States, this is standard. When Biden

left office, when it was clear that

Trump won in the 73 days, they spent 93

billion dollar from the Department of

Energy on just radical loans just

throwing money into places, right? And

there's no no oversight, no receipts.

Like the the whole thing is it's there's

a lot of fraud, a lot of money

laundering, but

also we help the world. And when you're

talking about making wells for people in

the Congo to get fresh water, when

you're talking about food and medicine

to places that don't have access, like

no way that should have been cut out and

that should have been clear before they

make these radical cuts. like there's

got to be a way to keep aid and not have

fraud and you can't have you can't say

we're going to kill everything so that

there's no fraud. But then you're

killing all the good and you're doing it

without letting anybody know it's going

to happen. So no one's it's not like

they had three years to prepare. Let's

build a new infrastructure. Let's make

sure that everything's set up. They

wanted change and they want to change

quickly. And due to the nature of

American politics, they have about two

years before the midterms, right? So

everything has to get done as quickly as

possible. You have to show a growth in

GDP. You have to show that the economy

is booming again under these ideas. Make

America first, tariffs for the world,

bring back American manufacturing, and

this mad rush to do it all as quickly as

possible while cutting out as much waste

as possible. Yeah. But the ironic thing

is even though Elon Musk has proposed

all these things and the Doge committee

has proposed all these things, they've

made no cuts in terms of the budget.

They've cut nothing. They vote against a

tiny part. I mean, if if if it's big

government or whatever, people want to

want to shrink. I I I I I get the

instinct, but this the lifesaving part.

It's like the little finger of the

giant, right? Exactly. I mean, and and

I' I've met all these people, and I'm

sure there's there's part of it, you

know, there's I think about 10% of it

goes to things like governance and, you

know, human rights organizations. You

might say that's political and we

shouldn't be involved in that. And

there's reforms, I imagine, that might

have been necessary, but to have the

reforms, but but to to to destroy to to

vandalize, I mean, it felt like with

glee these life support systems were

being pulled out of the walls. And I was

I was reading today, you know, is like I

think it's in Christianity today and

they're just talking I think it's called

Christian Relief, one of these

organizations and they're dealing with

malnourished kids. And they are having

the conversation now about we don't have

the funds. We have to choose which child

to pull off the IVs. And it just seems

to me like a kind

of I I I don't know if if evil is a

strong word, too strong a word, but what

we know about pure evil is it

rejoices

in the deaths, you know, of the

squandering of human life, particularly

children's and suffering. Yeah. It

actually rejoices in it. And and I just,

you know, whether it's whether it's

incompetence, whether it's unintended

consequences, it's it's not too late for

people like I I had conversations with

with with Marco Rubio. He's convinced

people aren't dying yet. It's it's it's

I don't know who's telling him, not

telling him rather, but he his instincts

are correct. He, you know, he wants to

die. He used to wear a one campaign

armband. Americans, no matter what

political color, they just they just

they just you you see them just the size

sort of they just grow in stature when

they know they're being useful. I had a

truck driver on that same tour. He like

tattoos all over his head and whatever

and he was just saying, "Can I drive? I

heard 50% of all truck drivers in Africa

are going to die. Is that right? Because

of this disease, AIDS. I said, "Yeah."

He said, "Can I give you my number? I

will drive." Like, that's America. And

and yeah, this the bureaucracy, the the

the the pen

pushers. I get it. I get people's

frustration for it. But but I'm just I

just want to remind

Americans of the size of their country.

And it's and I'm not talking about the

geography, the impact. I'm just the the

the size of the idea, the the the the

you know, it's just it's it's just an

extraordinary thing. It's an idea, I

think, big enough to fit the whole

world. when it becomes a

continent, you know, when it becomes an

island rather than a

continent. I think it's a subcontinent.

I should have should have gone to

geography uh lessons more, but you know,

you know what I'm talking about when it

shrinks. America seems to stop being

America. And I know you don't want to

get into wars and you shouldn't

um but that are that that don't concern

you but but there's this this word

freedom land of the free. Yeah.

That's and the brave. This is this is

who we look to you for and we look to

you for these qualities. And I believe

they're everywhere. And I don't believe

anyone party has

a has a hold on them. No. On these on

these qualities, but you know, it's it's

a it's a funny one for me. I one of the

reasons I came on on on the show, I

wanted to on the show was I I wanted to

interview you. I wanted

to I just wanted to get your take on

where America is at the at the present

time because because you're talking to

everyone, you

know, this isn't this is a compliment to

you,

but my book, you know, wrote this book,

Surrender, and sort of if there's a

point to it at the very end, it's it's

just I'm I'm shouting at God. I'm having

my wrestling match with my maker and you

just get this thing of and and you've

probably picked it up by now. Shut up

and listen. And I need to listen

more. You are a amazing listener. And I

don't know who it was or some who said

listening doesn't grant the other side

legitimacy but it grants them their

humanity. and restores your own and you

sit in this room and you listen to

everybody and that makes you very

valuable

um in to to the country and and I wanted

to just get your your take on it. What

what would your advice be to me and

people like me who are not part of

[Music]

the big industrial complex just we just

we just want to

serve the idea of America and the people

who depend on that idea. Yeah. I I What

would your advice to me? I would give

you zero advice. I I don't know if I'm

qualified to give advice, but I would

say that America goes through these

great periods of

overcorrection. It goes these great

periods of like you you saw it during

COVID, during the lockdowns and the

authoritarianism and we fell into a kind

of state of tyranny where there was just

massive oppression of free speech

including government sponsored

oppression. They were contacting uh

different social media platforms and

banning legitimate doctors and scholars

because they had different opinions

about how things should be handled.

There was uh widescale censorship, a

push for a changing of the first

amendment. The first amendment needs to

be overhauled. The first amendment

doesn't apply to hate speech or to

disinformation. And there was all these

like new ways of talking about

censorship in this country and condoning

censorship and it's very dangerous

because it's all about money. It had

nothing to do with protecting people.

That's what I worry about. The the

argument about free speech is that it

seems to be sponsored by a lot of people

who you sense don't really respect it so

much and it but it is a very economic

um for them to not have to to live with

the consequences. Yes. Of of a story. I

think what is it the communication I

think it's the it's 1996 this is a long

time ago

communications act decency act that

meant the internet did not have to apply

by the same rules as the rest of the

media right so we could say anything we

wanted and at first that felt like

liberation but I'm not so sure anymore

and so I mean I I you can tell me more

about this I'm I'm I am not a free

speech absolutist. Um, but I like I do

want to believe in free speech, but I'm

nervous that the people who are

supporting free speech and and using

their bots and their their their own

activists are are people from countries

who would not at all respect our your

mine ability to express ourselves. And

um that's what I worry about is I think

I think the the old interweb is being is

being played like a like a harp, you

know, like like an orchestra and and the

people, you know, behind the curtain

would surprise us, I think, if we knew.

Worse than that. I think it's programmed

like an EDM concert. I think I I think

it's not even an orchestra. I I I worry

and this has been substantiated by data

that more than 50% of the interactions

going on on the internet and social

media are not real. And there was a wild

former FBI analyst yes former FBI

analyst that said it might be as much as

80%.

It's bots as you said and this is this

is a problem with the concept of free

speech. I'm I'm completely wholly in

favor of free speech just like the ADL

was back in the day when they let the Ku

Klux Clan march. They they like look you

you've got to the way to combat bad

speech is with better speech. The way to

find out whose arguments are correct is

to let them debate in the marketplace of

free ideas and expose these people for

what they are and have the people that

are on the sidelines that are letting

these great thinkers have these

discussions say, "Okay, this guy makes

sense. This guy is clearly a grifter.

This guy has ulterior motives. this guy

has an ideology that's very toxic and

he's trying to push this on the whole

world for control, for power, for money,

to benefit the special interest groups

that he's a part of or whatever it is

that the problem with free speech is

you're you're also going to get a lot of

ugliness because there's a lot of

ugliness in the world. You're going to

get a lot of people that say horrible

things. And I think the only way we sort

through all that is you have to let

them. And then you have to let people

rise up that oppose those horrible

ideas. And those people become heroes.

Those become the Martin Luther King

Juniors. Humor helps. Like uh humor

helps. The one thing people know about

the Kluk clan is if you mention the

silly costumes, they they don't like

that. They, you know, it's like they

want you to be afraid or you want to be

nervous, but it's like, dude, look at

the stage gear. You're a ghost. You like

it's like, come on. Do you know who

Daryl Davis is? No. Daryl Davis is a

musician who um he's was a traveling

blues musician and uh did some shows

where afterwards he met some people that

told him that they were in the Klux

Clan. And he was like, "Are are you

kidding?" And they show the guy shows

him his [ __ ] grand wizard ident card

or whatever the hell it is. He becomes

friends with card. Daryl's black, right?

Daryl's a black man and becomes friends

with this guy, goes to his house, meets

his family. The guy throws the robe

away, gives up his membership in the

KKK, renounces his membership, and gives

Daryl the rope, says, "I want you to

have this." Daryl has done that

personally. The last time I talked to

him was a few years back. He'd done this

personally to over 200 people just by

being an amazing human being, by being a

brilliant artist and and hanging out

with them, just being kind and talk and

as an example of just a great human. And

they were like, I guess I'm wrong. I

guess I'm wrong. This idea that black

people are inferior and the white man is

a superior race, that can't be true

because I love this guy. And so they

would just quit. Yeah, they'd quit. And

he has theory. It's a terrible theory,

but if you're in a place with only

terrible theories and that's what you

grow up, there's Daryl

and they give him all

[Laughter]

his, you know, good man. He's a great

man. Good man. And he's a kind like very

peaceful like when you speak to him,

he's but real he's amazing. one of your

you know again one of the reasons I'm

I'm here

is

the I think there is a

sense that people just want to be part

of something and you know when we were

growing

up there there there were clubs you

could be a part of you know there there

there's

there's people you could hang out with

and you knew where that was going, but

if you wanted to belong and have a sense

of purpose, you ended up there. And and

so I think

that it's

okay

to un for for men to admit that in this

moment they are probably, you know,

we're we're a we're a little a drift. I

hear this from my daughters. I hear this

from my wife. And it's it's like that's

where this feeling of of of being

dislocated. It's it's so you're

attracted to these simple ideas, you

know, the concept of the gang or America

like it's a team sport between the reds

and the blues. America's the team.

That's all. Yeah. That's and and

and this thing and and and look, I'm

vulnerable. We were we are all

especially when you're growing up

teenagers, you know, you are very

vulnerable to to those points of view.

Yes.

I you know, early on we had sort of

Yeah. I would say I had

a I I got close to what you might call

fundamentalists.

And this is all versions of

fundamentalism. There are it's all a

very narrow view. Yeah. And and you know

what you see going on right in in Gaza

is you see you see Palestinian

people being held hostage by Hamas. It's

not just Israeli that are being held

hostage by Hamas. Palestinian people and

the fundamentalists in in in Israel in

this in in in the cabinet, these

farright

fundamentalists because at a time you

remember a few years back everything was

kind of wishywashy and kind of the new

age and whatever you have in yourself

and now these strong clear points of

view have

arrived and it's the great

overcorrection. It's the great

overcorrection. Yeah. that there's a

real problem with ideology and there's a

real problem with fundamentalism and

there's a cowardice in it and there's a

cowardice in I'm the only one that's

correct. There's a cowardice in not

listening to any other ideas, not

listening to any other positions and

we're being played against each other in

this country. The thing about the bots

and the social media stuff is it just

accentuates this divide between the left

and the right which I think is mostly

[ __ ] Most people are good people.

Most people just want to be happy and

healthy and have friends and family and

do what they want to do for a living and

have the freedom to pursue those things.

Most people aren't trying to victimize

people. Most people aren't trying to

destroy other people's lives and destroy

destroy society. They they they they

just want to live their life, but

they're being sucked into one side or

the other that which is radically

opposed to each other. The great

overcorrection. Did you

think that President Zalinski was being

bullied in that meeting in the Oval

Office? Like is that just just to think

about it as a playground? This is a guy

his maybe maybe his life depended but

certainly the life of many many people

he knew depend on and he had to he to

listen to that. Well, the whole thing is

strange, right? I mean, uh, the argument

in the White House of like you don't

have the right hand of cards and you

know that just the fact that this is all

being done publicly is very strange,

right? That there's cameras and

photographers like I don't like live

podcasts sometimes. I've done them

before, but there's something about

having an audience where you're playing

to an audience having, you know, these

conversations should be just couple

people in a room. That's what I think. I

think that's the the ones that resonate

with me the most. Yeah, this is I just

think it's the best way to do it, the

way that resonates the most. I think the

kind of conversation that you're going

to have with the world leader shouldn't

be performative and it it certainly

shouldn't be with a bunch of people

snapping photographs and pointing

cameras and then pushing each other back

and forth. You know, you you don't have

the right hand hand of cards. This is

not cards. You are playing cards. And

it's just a cra it's a crazy way. and

each calling each other disrespectful.

It's a crazy way to handle any world

events. It's just terrible platform for

it. Yeah. Just think of again I think of

America, the Americans of Omaha Beach,

the people who like the level of

courage. Yeah. And I think of

these people on the front line

in Europe. I mean, I haven't really

spoken about

Europe with with you, but you know, if

if if America is the melting pot, I

would say Europe's the the mosaic. You

know, it's all these different

people who speak with a different

language, but have are trying for one

voice in Europe, which is can sound like

cacophony. They call it Eurobel in in in

Brussels. But I' I've really I'm really

now realizing how romantic it was. You

know, we the Enlightenment with the

Renaissance, you know, we've got we got

a lot to offer and and

and Europe has Europe's under threat and

those

bots every election now that where this

candidate is pro- Europe and pro-

European unity, they are just getting a

[ __ ] storm of disinformation.

And and I just think, wow, but it's I

think Europe is and America are just

sexier than these people. Is that a trit

thing to say? But it's like they're

they're so kind

of

unsexy, you know? That's I mean that's

Sorry, I have I have driven unromantic.

Unromantic. It's That's right. It's just

these

very dull, not funny people, right? And

are trying to take over the world.

They're not funny. Lucenko of Bellarus,

that dude is not funny. We don't have to

go further. We don't have to go further.

Who do you think is the funniest world

leader?

Oh my god. Who? Yeah, that's a really

good question. It's got to be Trump.

He's the funniest. Well, he has the

thing that a lot of stand-up comedians

have, which is he can say the thing in

the room that no one else is going to

say, right? And that generally creates a

laugh. And um but I also think he

mightn't be able to take a joke. Well,

he's not good at that. He doesn't enjoy

a joke coming his way. No, he doesn't. I

mean, Zilinski is actually a comedian,

right? I I met him before he became

president. He played piano with his

penis on television. It It's quite a It

was quite a piano.

I mean, it's funny to go from playing

piano with your penis to becoming the

president of the Ukraine, becoming the

president of the United States by all

accounts. So, so um

but he he came to Ireland as a comedian.

He told me I didn't know and he played

like small towns. I think he played

Dundor or Draw or somewhere in the east

coast of Ireland. But comedians can read

a room. I mean

performers. I

think comedians are the top of the food

chain because you don't have a band. You

don't have a [ __ ] tambourine. You

don't. You just have the read of the

room and the material has to be really

funny. I use this sometimes with our

band. Not a lot of our music

is just experimental and innovative. We

improvise and then we try to turn it

into songs. But sometimes we'll write a

pop song and and we'll end up with a pop

song and I'll say, "Well, the thing

about a pop song is it is empirical.

It's like it either is or it isn't. It's

like a joke that doesn't have a

punchline. It's like a comedian does not

walk out on stage and tell a joke and if

people don't laugh go they just don't

get it. It just means the joke isn't

funny. So I it's not a popular theory in

our band by the way but I hold on to it

very tight. I just say if you can't go

out and play this song and it just

connect then it's not a pop song. We

don't we only do a few pop songs every

every decade probably because a lot of

what we YouTube does is different kind

of rock and roll. But I do think there's

something empirical about some songs are

better than the others. Yes. I witnessed

a I witnessed one of the most ridiculous

uh moments in in my life, but it was

kind of funny. Um, Oasis, you know,

Oasis are amazing to just love them. And

um, so I witnessed this. It couldn't be

a more childish fight

between two of my friends. Liam Galler

was a friend at that point, I know

better now, but and Michael Hutchkins,

who was the singer of in Excess. And

they really were doing the my song's

better than your song. Oh no. No. No.

What about No, no. And and and and I was

thinking, I was laughing to myself and

then I

thought it's interesting. Both of them

have a point. That song of theirs might

be better than that. And I started to

think about it

and comedians don't get a chance to have

to be

subjective. It's not like Prince walks

out and plays a whole new album and can

go they just don't get it. It's like

you're either funny or you're not.

Right. You're going down flame. Have you

gone down in flames? Oh, sure. Yeah. Oh,

yeah. Where's What was your worst gig?

Oh, I've had so

many. Especially in the early days,

you're you're trying to figure it out.

And you know, the thing about material

is material is essentially like like a

calf that's newly born and it has

awkward legs and it has to develop into

a bull. But it takes a long time. It

takes crafting. You have to sit with it.

You have to go over the some ideas come

to you in full form and some ideas you

have to believe in them. You know

there's something there and you have to

dig and you know trust the muse and find

it and you know sometimes those bits

will just [ __ ] bomb and you have to

just like gosh should I abandon this?

Should I keep working on this? Do you

have a team of writers? No. Wow. No, I

just write everything myself. You're

kidding. No. Always. Yeah. Always have.

always right. I just like my my view on

standup, the kind of standup that I do

is supposed to be here's the world

through my eyes. This is how I'm seeing

things from the most ridiculous aruck

and laughing at everything perspective

and I have to it has to be through my

lens. Well, that's amazing. I mean,

because I've seen, you know, on Saturday

Night Live when we do it or I've seen

some of the talks, I see these geniuses,

you know, crunching jokes and coming out

with material and that's a different

thing. It's a different thing. Yeah.

Like a Saturday Night Live monologue or,

you know, a Tonight Show monologue or

any of that kind of thing. It's a That's

a different thing. The The real standup

is clubs, you know. I went to club with

Dave Chappelle to a club. He brought me

to it was amazing. Are you still

friendly with him? Oh, real good

friends. Yeah. I love him to death.

Yeah, he's he's he's incred That's jazz.

Yes, he's a real artist. He can go

there. Well, well, you know, it's

like Yeah. No, I'm I I think Why am I

Why am I talking about this? I'm told

this. Oh, yeah. Because people can't

take a joke, right? And some people I

mean, we don't need belly laughs out of

our leaders. We just need vision. You

need vision and kindness. Yes, but to

deal

with the Klux Clan, humor helps. to deal

with the the fascists or whatever. I I

mean certainly Hitler

in I think late 30s was getting rid of

the dads and the surrealists because the

language of fascism was to fight back

but that they liked that language and I

mean the language of resistance against

you know Hitler was to fight back and

and but they that suited them. They did

not like being laughed at. the fuel did

not like being laughed at. Well, cuz if

you can mock something, like you can you

can have a position or an opinion on

something and someone can disagree

strongly, but if they make everyone

laugh at that position, now you're now

they've made a real point because it's

actually an opinion that you might not

have even agreed with has caused you to

belly laugh. Like, oh god. Like, that's

how you really get because if you go on

stage and just have a bunch of opinions

and just lecture people, there's people

in the audience that go, well, well,

[ __ ] you. I feel differently. But if you

could go on stage with that opinion and

make people laugh at something they know

they shouldn't be laughing at like, oh

my god. And you're like like then you're

introducing ideas into a person. It's a

spoonful of sugar that helps the

medicine go down. Yeah. No, you're

certainly the because with rock stars

and again honestly feel like I'm just a

impersonating one. I don't think I I am

the material really, but people when

they see me coming, they sit in their

wallet. You know what I mean? They're

like, "Wh he comes and he's going to

have a sign up." And it's like, whereas

comedians, people are much more open.

People will people will are just more

open. I think that's a that's that it's

a responsibility, but

it's it's something to be valued. It's

just I I I was saying to somebody

recently, I'm not sure I trust people

anymore who aren't a little bit funny.

Yeah. I mean, funny in the not not the

funny peculiar, right? There's a place

for that, too. But, you know, people who

make you laugh are open. Yes. And also,

the contradictions of the world and how

bizarre things are, it's just ripe with

humor. And if you don't ever pick up on

it, like what are you focusing on? Like

you don't ever see the hypocrisy and the

ludicrousness of just this existence,

this temporary existence on a spinning

orb hurling through the universe and

concentrating on who gets to use what

bathroom. Like is this like, you know

what I mean? It's like we're weird.

We're very weird. And if you don't see

that, you're not paying all attention.

You're not all in. You're certainly not

balanced. Those mushrooms were working

very well for you. Yeah, that I'm

telling you, man. In God's country.

That's the ticket. That's beautiful. I I

um Wow. I'm I'm so touched that

album, you know, a lot of the songs on

that

were, you know, very vulnerable, you

know, and I don't know if you know

Brian, you know, was a produced at one

of invented ambient music and worked

with David Bowie, talking heads, you

know, um, and recently Coldplay and

other people. Um, but he was had a

profound influence on us because we

didn't go to I didn't go to art college.

All like the Beatles, the Stones, they

all went to art college. We went to

Brianino and he had this incredible

musician in partnership with him for the

production of that album called Daniel

Lano. One of the greatest

musicians you'll ever meet in your life.

And that some songs come really quickly,

like boom, you just But somes are just

like what you're saying. They're like

the the the fo the the legs are going

around. And the one that was like that

was where the streets of Noame and so we

were working on it for what felt like

weeks and Brian you know came in and he

just said I am not having us spend one

more minute on this song and he went to

wipe it. So he was actually gonna wipe

it and and so there's no other copies

and Pat McCarthy who was our engineer

went on to produce and Madonna great

dude he physically blocked Brian from it

and but that song for

me and it's it's not the lyric that I'm

most proud of or anything because it's

Brian was just saying to us just go with

you for a sketch. Remember talking about

paint on canvas? Yes. But I'm saying,

but it's not it's not that clever. I

want He don't let it be clever. Just

that's what you said. That's what you

meant. And and it's the strangest thing.

Uh Joe,

because we go on stage and I sing that

song, we sing that song, we play that

song. And it's like, what the [ __ ]

Where the streets of knowing? What's

that about? I started it in Africa when

I was with my wife when I was a kid and

you were

25 something like maybe 26. She was

24 and it was about the devastation that

was happening in the Ethiopian famine

and I just couldn't explain it to

myself. There was other

inferences about the song, but none of

them

matter as much as this question to your

audience, which is do you want to go

there to this place, a place of

imagination, a place of soul, place of

that other place? Do you want do you

want to go there? Should we do you want

to go there together? And

everybody feels it because we all want

to

be outside of ourselves at a certain

time and we all want to have that

experience that meeting with some call

it the universe some call it God some

call it themselves whatever but it's

it's music

now I think you know all art aspires to

the condition of of music. But but we I

was saying we go to church in the dark,

you know, that's what rock and roll is.

And we're just looking for little shards

of light. We find it in in an audience.

We find our transcendence together. But

the movie,

we also go to church in the dark in

cinema. You're sitting in you're in

you're in a dark

space and it's projected light telling

other people's stories

[Music]

and somebody said cinema is like being

born like you go into the womb. It's

like you're floating around in the, as

Jim Sheran would say, he's my hero,

psychological genius, Irish director, My

Left Foots, The Boxer, some great films.

He'd say, "Yeah, you're in the amniotic

fluid. You're inside the

mutter and you're about to come out into

the light." That's cinema. Great cinema

is that journey towards the light. And I

love that. Um, I love that. But it's the

same for some people. They their

cathedral

is a

hike, the natural world. Yeah. Have you

ever heard of Richard Roar? No. Oro Hor.

He lives in Albuquerque. He has a thing

called it's called the center of the

center of

um action and contemplation.

And I really love it that it's that way

round. And he's a

Franciscan frier and

but very otherworldly thoughts

about the natural world

and finding the the divine in it as well

as just in each other, but just seeing

it in the world around you. I think

you'd en enjoy him. He's he's he's he's

worth he's worth a read. Do you is if

Rogan is it Irish? Is it Catholic Irish?

Is it? Yeah. Right. Yeah. Okay. You

might enjoy him. I'm sure I would. Yeah.

He's he's a he's a he's a real beauty.

He lives got a little hermitage

and and

and Yeah. And he's he's good. Um he's

great on the anagram as well. Do you

know the anagram? No. It's the sort of

archetypal thing. goes back to

Sufi I think early Sufi and then the

Christian

fathers are they what they call the

desert fathers in the 4th century but

it's a way of recognizing archetypes and

our own I I I it's not a it's not a big

thing for me or anything it's not

archetypes but I think my our daughter

Eve is an actor and she said a lot of

writers are interested in And she said

in some of the clever schools they teach

this the anagram. He's anyway Richard Ro

is an expert in it I think. Oh here it

goes. Oh anyagram. Three centers. Oh

looks like a cult of intelligence. The

mediator peacemaker. So the

perfectionist reformer the giver helper

supporter performer achiever romantic

individualist. The observer thinker the

loyal skeptic. the trooper, the epicure,

enthusiast, generalist, and the

protector, the leader of the boss. What

would you say you are? Oh, Jesus. I

don't know how you could tell. I

wouldn't at this point I think I just

keep on keeping on. I try not to pay

attention to me as much as possible. I

think there's a thing that happens what

you're talking about on stage where

everyone achieves a higher state of

consciousness through a song. I think

that's that's where it is really like a

church. That's where it is really like a

religious experience when when a a great

song is playing that like really like

when people hear it and like ah you know

maybe it's the first couple of bars of

Sunday Bloody Sunday. They hear it and

they're like yes. It's like this thing

that washes over everyone collectively.

We're all experiencing it together and

it takes you away from yourself. You

know, everyone's caught up in their own

struggle and their their self and how

they exist in this world and all the

problems of reality. And then there's

something about these moments of divine

inspiration where they impact people in

this very profound way. And I think

that's one of the reasons why people are

so deeply drawn to music and especially

live performance because music is

wonderful. Music by yourself is great. I

love listening to music in my car. I

love listening to music period. But

music when you're in a live setting,

when everyone's experiencing it

together, it's it's a religious

experience. There's something there's

something attuned to it. There's a

reason why they sing in church, right?

To achieve very similar. Yeah. I missed

that. You know, when we were kids

growing up, the tunes weren't that great

in the church. And I said to my I mean,

no offense to whoever was there, but

they I agree. But you know, I was like I

I said to our kids, you know, as and

they were all none of them were baptized

Protestant or Catholic because my father

was Catholic, my mother's. I just said,

"You want to be Christian, you want to

be Christian, but you decide." So, you

know, I never got religion rammed down

my throat. I'm certainly not going to

put it down yours. So, we'd go and

sometimes you just get a feeling in a

place. I said, "Just trust that

feeling." Yeah. And they might say,

"Well, the tunes aren't that good." And

I'm like, "It's okay." But but I I I

would I remember when I was really young

walking in and hearing like the

Salvation Army band and people singing

and I remember getting the shivers just

thinking these are these are these these

hymns, these ancient Yes. songs. They

they really connect us.

And I I miss that. And I I think people

I think people would return to religion

if if if religion wasn't so [ __ ] up.

Yeah. And

and I think

people, you know, the the church has to

serve the people and and and not the

other way around.

And you know, the church

presently, I don't know how many

churches you'd have here in Austin,

Texas, but I'd probably say if there's

276 different kinds of um churches, you

know, it's it's just one church. It's

just in 276 bits, pieces.

It feels sometimes like it's at odds

with

science, but it's not. Science is the

pursuit of truth. And so these are

pilgrims, too. The great scientists are

trying to crack the code of the physical

world. The

great theologians are trying to crack

the code of the metaphysical world. And

nobody knows. That's the thing about

literalism. You know that beautiful

thing in, you know, everyone has it at

their wedding. Love is patient. Love is

kind. We can roll over you. Love is

this. Love is that. And then it goes

faith, hope, and and love. But the

greatest of these is love. And I

remember talking with somebody and

saying, "Well, why is love more

important than faith? Why is love more

important than hope?"

And the clue is a few verses later where

it says we

see through the

mirror

darkly. But one day we'll see face to

face. We know now in part, but one

day we will know

fully as we

ourselves are known.

You cannot be a

fundamentalist and and

not understand that that is an

explanation to just realize that you can

have faith, you can have hope, but love

means you need love. We need love

because we cannot be sure. Our

certainties, our certainties, that's the

scary thing. And you know, I trust a

feeling as a musician. I trust it when

I'm going, you know, to sing or to

improvise. But they're not certainties.

They're instincts. Yeah. And and I love

that you feel that

music is a still a communal place. Our

festivals are amazing and and people

people are deprived presently of of a

place where they feel comfortable. I'm

comfortable in the back of a cathedral.

I'm comfortable at some what's your

friend the the blues guy or you know a

gospel church. I'm I'm I'm just I'm just

looking for the spirit. Yes. Wherever I

find it in a conversation

I can feel it when it's happening where

when we're having an honest

conversation. You feel it. It's a It's a

thing and I'm and I can put down my

salesman and just have a conversation

because the three on that inagram is

probably my number. I because it's so

excruciating. But um it's the salesman.

I sell

ideas as well as songs and I sometimes

just have to

just just shut up and listen. I think

we're all those things just to varying

degrees. And I think the spirit of the

thing is what you're talking about. This

intangible moment where everybody

realizes they're in it. Whether it's in

a church where they're sing or one of my

favorite moments with you was on uh the

Jimmy Fallon show singing Ordinary Love.

Oh wow. I loved it. We played it on the

podcast. when it happened uh the next

day when it got out on YouTube, I I

brought it in here and I go, "You gotta

listen to this. This is just such an

amazing rendition of a song because it's

just you sitting on these chairs and

Jimmy Fallon is next to you on the table

like this." Is it here? What a beauty.

We played this. I want to listen to it.

Let's put this on. Put the headphones

on. I [ __ ] love this version.

[Music]

wants to kiss the golden shore. The

sunlight wants your

skin. All the beauty that's been lost

before wants to find us

[Music]

again. I can't find you anymore.

You are fighting

for the sea throws rocks together but

time leaves us

polished. We can't fall any further in.

We can't feel ordinary love and we

cannot reach any higher if we can't deal

with ordinary love.

[Music]

Birds fly high in the summer sky and

rest on the

breeze. The same wind will take care of

you and I. We'll build our house in the

trees. Your heart is on my sleeve.

Did you put it there with a magic mug?

For our years, I would believe that the

world couldn't wash us

away. We can't fall any further.

We can feel ordinary love and we cannot

reach any higher if we can deal with

ordinary love. We can fall any

further. We can feel ordinary love and

we cannot reach any higher if we can't

deal with ordinary love.

Oh yeah. Yeah. I love this part. Oh,

come on.

Falling further

in ordinary love and we cannot reach any

higher. We can't deal with ordinary

love. We can't fight any further.

We can feel ordinary love. We cannot

reach any

higher. We can't deal with her quest.

[Music]

Love you, too. Everybody,

that is that is without a doubt hands

down my favorite performance ever. ever

on a talk show ever. Because it was so,

first of all, it starts out so relaxed.

You're just sitting on the couch and

you're singing it and you're just so on

it. You're so on it that everyone just

gets captivated by it and then the music

builds and then you bring in roots. It's

[ __ ] phenomenal. And that's so like

that is what we're talking about. That's

like this moment that elevates people.

It takes people out of their life and

just this joy of expression all

happening simultaneously with everybody

in the crowd and every and then when you

stand up and you start dancing and roots

are playing who just washes over

everybody. That is it's odd that you

should should bring it up because I was

sitting in a table with a couple of

journalists

um friends of a friend of mine this

economist called David McWills. did love

him. By the way, he's the guy who says

uh the poor think in minutes, the the

rich think in years. You know, they're

kind of one of the one of us close. But

anyway, sitting with a bunch of

people and

they're from London and this guy's

going, "Yeah, he says Mc Williams here.

He's all about you, too. He's all about

you." Yeah. He hasn't got any of your

[ __ ] records. I have your records.

I've got all your records. I've [ __ ]

gone off you, right? Gone right off you.

That [ __ ] song, Ordinary Love. He's

got a whatever glass in his hand and

he's getting the the the Dutch and the

British courage and the Irish courage

and he's going that song about Mandela

and all that. So, I listen to it. It's

like [ __ ]

nothing. And

then I I I was watching Jimmy Fallon.

and you played the same song. And he

said I was in tears. He

said it just something something

happened. Yeah.

So I look at it and I'm going dodgy

haircut on the singer. But I am also

being defensive because I can feel

something too. There is something going

on. That is the thing. And I and you

two, you know, we're making an album at

the moment and it has to be framed

around that. Not that song, not that

even style of songwriting, but that

thing, the the the thing, the moment,

the spirit, whatever that is. Yeah. And

the conversation you're having with your

audience, with somebody, a deep

listener.

By the way, that same woman who said

about listening, she said deep

listening is an act of

surrender.

And so it's coming full circle for me.

Well, if you're in that audience,

there's an act of surrender for sure.

When and if you're an artist, if you're

singing it. Yes. That's you have to.

Yes. And everyone recognizes that.

That's why it resonates. So, I mean, I I

just think if we're a rock and roll

band, there's four people in your band.

There's nobody sounds like Adam Clayton,

you know? I mean, there's nobody sounds

like Edge. There's nobody sounds like

Larry Mullen. And nobody wants to sound

like me. No, no, there's I can sing. I

can sing. And I'm becoming the singer

I I am. And that's the reason I'm still

in a band because we all have to answer

that question, don't we? Why Why would

we still be in a band? We've got to feel

that it's our best album that's going to

come. Yes. But if it is, it's going to

be because we frame it around that

moment in the room when that happens.

Yes. I promise you. I can't deliver

that. Promise you for every song on the

album. I'll come back if you'll have me

and I'll play you some of the the the

the songs. But but but for the live rock

and roll pieces, it has to have that. I

recognize that. Yes. You could come back

anytime you want. Well, by the way. Oh,

thank you. Anytime. But yeah, that that

that's what everybody wants out of

entertainment, out of celebration.

That's what everybody wants, these

moments. Yeah. And that was a real

moment, Matt. That was a real moment

that resonated through the television. I

couldn't imagine what it would have been

like to be in that room. And I was

thinking that like, God, I wish I was

there because, you know, you see Will

Smith and Will Smith's in the corner.

You see him just taken over by the music

like nodding his head like, oh my god.

Just in that moment, it was so pure.

Strange strange resonance. I don't know

if it was mentioned, but he played

Nelson Mandela. No, he played Muhammad

Ali. He played Muhammad Ali. Right.

Right. I got that wrong. That just would

be funny. That would be funny. Yeah. But

it was that that's what everybody's

looking for. That's what everybody's

looking for out of art, out of religion,

out of just love and community. We're

looking for these moments that elevate

us above everything else. And there's a

moment when a a a great performance like

that. Just when everyone in the audience

realizes what you're doing and we're all

in it together and people at home are in

it like that was so powerful. It re it's

everything through the television is

like 60% of what it is in person at the

most. Well, he you know we we used to

avoid um TV because it's actually Bruce

Springsteen advice years and years ago.

He said be careful of being on TV

because people can turn you down. You

know they can go off to the kitchen and

you know make coffee. So he's kind of

right about that. It can it can take

away the mystery. But, you know, that

that studio that he's in, um, Jimmy, you

know, that's a historic place. You know,

the Beatles or whatever, you know, think

of all the artists that have been in on

the So, there's something going on

there. Oh, yeah.

And and he he's he's a very beautiful

spirit. He he just really He seems like

it. I don't know him, but he seems like

I've been out late night with him. I've

been, you know, in in in all kinds of

situations and is just a really a

see-through heart, you know, trans

transparent persons. Just you you see

you see you see what he's thinking. Now,

how he does that night after night, I

will never know. Yeah. Like I'm I'm

terrified going on those shows. This is

easy for me because I'm talking. I don't

do full stops and commas, but you know,

I don't have to. You're not asking me

to. I'm just having a conversation. But

to be sharp and be on it. Yeah. I don't

know if I'm going to be sharp or on it.

And part of being in you too is I have

to be true to my mood. And then I've

have to allow the the song to take me

somewhere else. And yeah, my

my yeah, it's it's a funny thing, you

know, yeah, this performing there's not

much psychology written about being a

being a being, you know, books about un

about the psychology of a singer.

Probably there is for comedians or No,

there's barely forians. I think the

problem is that only the people that can

truly do it understand it, right? That's

the problem. you know the problem and

then you the the what you're talking

about with confinement for the talk show

format that's also what makes that

moment so much greater is because you

realize yes it's just it's it it's it

doesn't belong there that that format is

for hollow platitudes and selling a new

television show and getting in and out

before the seven minute commercial break

it's a It's the worst way to have a

conversation where you're going to get

the most out of people because the most

that you when you have time constraints

on conversations, you immediately feel

under the gun. So, you're kind of like

tense and you're pressured and you don't

know when and then and then the audience

is staring at you and then there's

bright lights. Everything is wrong.

Everything is it's opposed to the way uh

normal comfortable human conversation

and connection works. M it works with

silence around you and just people

talking or in a pub or wherever you're

at, you know, in a living room with

friends at a party. Like that's the real

human connection where it's open-ended

and you're just talking

soon as you like lock it down and then

you know you have to lock it down for

commercials and you you have to button

this up and there's a new person coming

in in five minutes so they got to

shuffle you out the door and hold up

your album and tell everybody to buy it

and then you leave and like was that

good? I guess it was good. It's like you

know what I mean? It's I don't I never

liked doing them. I always felt confined

and I would never do standup on them. I

was always asked to do standup on them.

Like that's not where standup belongs.

Like but if someone can pull it off like

there's been great comedians that pulled

off incredible Tonight Show sets like

Richard Jenny and George Carlin. Who's

your Yeah. Who's your favorites? I mean

apart from I'm not going to ask you

about your mates but people that you we

were talking earlier about singer people

that I just looked up to. Who were who

were the ones that formed you? Well,

when I was a child, I was probably I

guess I was 15 or 16. My parents took me

to see Live in the Sunset Strip in a

theater and it was Richard Prior. He

performed he did a concert special in

the theater and I think it's his

greatest performance. And when I was

there in the theater, I was laughing so

hard and I remember very clearly looking

around at all these people and they were

falling out of their chairs laughing.

People were just falling back, slapping

each other, going, "Oh my god, oh my

god." Like they couldn't breathe. And I

remember thinking, "This guy is doing

this just talking." And I remember all

the funny movies that I'd seen like

Stripes and, you know, all the great

comedies, Animal House, funny comedies.

Nothing compared to this. And this guy's

just talking. It was an incredibly

profound moment for me. I remember I got

obsessed with Richard Prior. I started

buying Richard Prior cassettes.

I would buy like whatever I could, you

know, you could find them and I found a

bunch that were like you had there were

like weird printings of him at Red Fox's

comedy club. I actually found them in a

truck stop once. They were selling these

cassettes. I was like, "What is this?"

And then I I bought them and there were

incredible performances, like 15 people

in the crowd. He's just ranting and

going on these like unhinged rants about

things and just having fun and being

really loose. And I just couldn't

believe that someone could do that. That

he could just by talking this theater

filled with people were just falling

down laughing and just blown away. So

that was probably my first thought about

standup comedy. My first real thought

just how what a crazy power to have.

Like what an unbelievable thing to be

able to do with just your words. Yeah. I

saw Robin Williams do that a few times.

cuz I was in a room with him and I just

he just couldn't not turn it off. It was

just and it was wild. It was he he he

was certainly not in control of it. And

that's we there's a genius um comedian

called Tommy Tieran. I don't know if

you've seen him. I've heard him. He he

again when he goes out and he doesn't go

out often because I think it scares the

shite out of him what he's going to say

next. Yeah. And so that is the thing of

having the material and then being able

to blow, you know, just let go of the

material. Yeah. That's I think must be

part of this. Is it? Yeah. I mean I I

don't know. I I am Yeah, it's part of

it. Yeah. The these ideas they come to

you and you just have to decide whether

to embrace them or not. I don't. And you

get yourself into such trouble. Yeah.

Because you just you say the thing that

you thought of. But the art is in fact

being able to say the thing you've

thought of. That's it's a strange one.

Truly realized that. And I never had any

aspirations of comedy whatsoever when I

was young when I was in when I loved

Richard Prior. I just loved it as a fan

just like I loved rock and roll. I

didn't want to be a singer. I just loved

it. And then I saw Kenison.

And I think that was the first moment

where I went, "Oh, this is comedy, too.

Wow. Okay. What is comedy?" You know,

because everybody else had been like

telling jokes or with prior it was like

these stories of life that was so like

revealing and so vulnerable but also

hilarious like deeply fun just like so

accurate in the caricatures of pe of

people. And then there was Kenisonson. I

was like okay this is comedy too. And

the the first thing I ever saw of him I

was actually introduced to him by a girl

that I worked with a girl that I worked

with at a gym. I worked at the Boston

Athletic Club. I was a trainer. I was

teaching people how to lift weights. And

there was a lady who was a volleyball

player who I was friends with that

worked there. She worked the front desk.

And she was like, I saw HBO last night.

This comedian was so funny. And in the

parking lot of this gym that we worked

out, she did Sam Kenisonson's bit of

homosexual necroiliacs paying a bunch of

money to be with the freshest male

corpses. Have you ever seen the bit? I

have. So the bit is the guy, he goes,

"Imagine this. You're at the end of your

life, you know, you're lying down.

You're like, "Well, I guess I'm dead

now. I'm going to be alone with Jesus,

and that's going to be great. I'm going

to be in heaven." And hey, he starts

rocking back and forth. What is this? It

It feels like someone's got a dick in my

ass. I mean, life keeps [ __ ] the ass.

Even after you're dead, it never ends.

It never ends. She's doing this

impression. She's lying on the parking

lot on her stomach going back and forth.

And I'm dying laughing. I was like, I

got to see this. So, my first

introduction to Kenisonson was this

friend of mine. Her doing it on the

concrete. You did a That was good. It

was amazing. You No, no, that you you're

you doing her doing him. Oh, yeah. It

was She did a great job. She had me

howling. Who else? Uh, well, he was a

huge one. Um, Eddie Murphy for sure.

That was a huge one. Then again, that

was also like I I still didn't think I

was going to do standup until I saw

Kenisonson. The fir when I first saw

Kenisonson, that was when it was like

maybe I can do because I had friends

telling me to do it. But it was friends

that I did martial arts with. So we

would have to from the time I was 15

till I was like 21 22 all I did was

travel around the country competing and

I was with this such a wild combination

if you don't mind me saying it's just

like it it just the martial arts seems

so

unfunny you you you know you you were

fighting for your life. It's very scary.

So in the when it's terrifying like that

and everyone's nervous that's when

gallows humor comes in and I was the guy

who m I always needed attention when I

was young. So I was getting my attention

from being really good at fighting but

then I was also getting my attention

around the also the people that were

really good at fighting at being funny.

So when we were all like you know a

bunch of [ __ ] crazy people the their

hobby was to travel around the country

trying to kick people unconscious right?

So, this is the job. This is the group

that I'm hanging out with. And, you

know, most of them were older than me.

Uh, I was the youngest because I was in

high school at the time. Most of these

were grown men. And I was competing

against grown men while I was in high

school, which is another crazy thing. My

instructor was hardcore. And he threw me

to the grown men when I was 16. It was

terrifying. But because it was so

terrifying, I developed this way of

releasing steam. And so my friend of

releasing my way of releasing steam. I'd

make fun of different guys that we

trained with having sex like how he

probably does it and this and that. And

we were always just I was just always

trying to crack people up. And I had one

friend that I'm still really good

friends with to this day, my friend

Steve Graham, who talked me into doing

standup. And I never thought I'm like

you think I'm funny because you like me.

I go but you're crazy too. Like you're a

[ __ ] psychopath as well. Like you're

you think I'm funny because you're doing

the same thing that I'm doing. Like

we're nutty people. We're not normal.

Other people are going to think I'm an

[ __ ] And then the when you walked

out though, you tell tell me what how

was he there when you walked out on the

first time? Oh yeah, he was there the

first night. Yeah. So So can you paint

me the picture? I was at a comedy club.

I was terrible. I went to open mic

night. I did like five minutes. It was

horrible. But I got a couple of laughs.

I got a couple chuckles. And I I was

like I got off stage. I was like, I

think I could do this. The weirdest

thing was like I had probably at that

time I was 21 years old. I'd probably

fought at least a hundred times. Wow.

And I was way more terrified of doing

comedy. Way more scared. Way more

scared. Like fighting was scary, but I

was like, I know it just has to start.

Once it starts, I know what to do. Like

the real fear of comedy or of fighting

was before the fight. It was all the

demons, all the the thing. Why am I

doing this? Why are you doing fighting

in the end? That's what you're fighting.

You're fighting the fear. But I knew

once it started, I wouldn't be scared at

all cuz you don't feel fear when you're

fighting cuz it's you're so in the

moment. You're you're in the moment.

You're you're zen. You almost don't

exist, you know? You have to to operate

at the highest level to have like

instantaneous reactions and to be able

to manage your pace and all these

different things. You can't think about

yourself or how you look or how you feel

or whether your girlfriend's mad at you

or whether you're going to fail out of

high school. you have to be locked into

what you're doing. So, I wasn't afraid

of fighting. I was afraid of everything

before fighting. I was afraid of

feelings. And so, but that's where the

comedy came from. The comedy came from

like alleviating that, you know, and

Right. So, there is a symbiosis there,

you know. There's there's a thing in it.

It's a task, a very complicated task.

The way I describe fighting is it's

highlevel problemolving with dire

physical consequences. That's what it

really is. You could call it fighting.

You could think it's brutish and

aggressive. Say that again. It might be

the title of our new album. Highlevel

problem solving with dire physical

consequences. So, as as far as like

sport, I just put meta in front of the

physical consequences. Yes, we got

ourselves an album. Yes.

It's the most consequential of all all

sports cuz when someone beats you, they

don't just beat you, they take away

everything you are as a man. When

someone destroys you in in a

competition, you are not a man anymore.

You are significantly decreased in your

value. Everything about you, you feel

terrible. Is good. You were You are as

good the day you walked in there

confident and you still feel like [ __ ]

where you felt like you could take on

the world. You have the same skills.

You're as good as you felt when you

could take on the world. And now you

feel like utter dog [ __ ] And yet we

know that failing is how we succeed. You

know the Samuel Beckett lines, fail,

fail again, fail better. I may have

failed to get the quote right, but it

that's it. You know, fail, fail, fail

better. The pain is fuel. The pain of

failure is the most potent fuel, the

most potent inspiration known to man.

And the more terrifying the failure,

whether it's failure in standup comedy

or it's failure in that's very high

stakes if you think about I'm just

thinking this through the second

both your

chosen

passions entail the risk of humiliation.

Yeah, you have to have that. That's the

only way you get better. Wow. That's the

only way you really get better. It's

tricky. Um super tricky. I my I my I my

I my I my I my I my I my I my I my I my

I my I grew up my best mate um since I

was three years old. Um he just gave me

my name my Bono he gave us all names but

and his family names his genius really

um painter became his painters father

there was tough stuff going on on our

street in their house and

um he he grew up well they the father

used to was kind of religious

[Music]

um extremist let's call it that. Used to

humiliate the kids by putting a bowl on

their hair on their hair and cutting

their hair. So he'd walk around with

these pudding bowls. So everyone would

be like around be like a

they were just so fast. They were all

they could all look after themselves.

And like the boy named Sue, it's it is

the Johnny Cash song. Boy Named Sue.

They are they and so good my mate. So I

grew up sparring with him. This is this

is how literally how we grew up and his

so we watch all the boxing matches all

what the obvious ones and he just really

went into his obsession became mixed

martial arts so he wants his kids he's

you know they're going down to the gym

and then my godson okay his name is Noah

and he comes and this is not a joke this

is not a joke so goodie my mate since

I'm three years old comes up and he goes

Oh. He says, "No, he's he wants to give

up fighting, you know, cage fighting."

And I said, "Oh, that's that's okay." I

said, "What does he want to

do?" He wants to be a

doctor. And I'm like, "Googie, this is a

really your kid wants to be a doctor and

you're disappointed, but he could be

such a great fighter." And I I said,

"Gookie, he wants to be a doctor. This

is a by the way, he became a doctor.

This is not this story. That's how it

ended. But I said and he but he but he

was such a good fighter. I said why did

he give up? He said he's down the gym.

He said I can't even beat the best guy

in the gym. If I can't beat the best guy

in the gym, there's no point in me

having a big career. He said the best

guy in the gym was Conor McGregor and

and he was a few years older. So it's

and then two of his other kids are

fighters now. Wow. So I've I've grown up

around it and because of my mates and

his and his kids and but that

thing of of

combat, being comfortable in

combat is a thing you to be careful of

because you can end up there. And

sometimes I do well you see it's you

because it's a art form for you. It's a

it's a it's a it was a you know

profession. It was a it's different. But

people like me fight or flight is a

problem because sometimes fight is on

and I and there is no fight. Right. So

that's part of the shut up and listen

instructions I'm receiving

from which is I'm kind of born that's

with my fists up and and from whatever

way just growing up and being around

what I was around and experiencing what

I experienced I have that and and and

and even in the band I'm a bit like that

and and so I've got to be careful

Because it's not always somebody coming

around the corner who wants to take you

out and they might actually just want to

take you out, right? You know, and it's

it's not becoming

of to be combative at all times. So, I'm

I'm I'm learning to put my fist down.

I'm learning to spend those times in the

morning thanking God that I'm alive

because I had a heart surgery as we

talked about earlier and just waking up

is great. Just like wow, I've just woken

up. What a thrill. And I'm trying to get

to that place with not with the

world, but with myself. I've not made

peace with the world. I certainly have

not. But I am making more peace with

myself which is sometimes a bit harder

and and and the family and listening to

them more and and and yeah that's that's

that's it. This this combat thing is is

interesting. Were you in in the

neighborhood? I asked you earlier but

were there

people were is there people you can

remember? Sure. from like like us being

like on you competitive on me not from

the time I started training once I

started training I got very good very

quick and I became kind of known for it

people start picking because I was I was

doing it at a in a crazy way it wasn't

as simple as like oh he takes karate

it's like no he on the weekends he's

traveling around the country and

fighting in tournaments you know and I'

I was winning them you know so I was it

I found a thing very early on that I

could excel at that was scary that

people and I realized through that

thing. You can get good at anything. You

just have to put your attention and

focus to it. And well, when do you put

your attention and focus to something

the the most? Well, when your literal

health relies on success. It was so

scary that you couldn't halfass it.

which is like I have a problem with

things that involve too much personality

and charisma where they could mask truth

and I think this is the problem with

evangelical preachers this is the

problem with politicians

and it could be anybody but it's like

there's this siren call that will lead

you to the rocks and it's believing your

own [ __ ] and fighting was it It

didn't matter what your personality was.

It didn't matter. It's empirical. Yeah.

It did. Nothing mattered. It didn't

matter how many people liked you. If you

get kicked in the head, you get [ __ ]

up. And on the flip side of it, I used

to love when I would go to someone

else's hometown and they had all these

people beating like cheering for them.

All these people like, you know, you're

going to [ __ ] them up. All these people

cheering in the corn. I would love that.

It was my favorite thing. My favorite

thing. I was like, they can't help you.

Do you have rage

me now? No, I'm just when you're

fighting I mean obviously my what we do

in music is we try to turn rage

into something beautiful and that's what

rock and roll is the sound of you know I

think it was Neil Young that said

something like sound of revenge or

something whatever it's rage for sure

there's rage that's what separates

certain bands you want to know what the

difference between a pop band and a rock

and roll bandage it's rage rage against

the machine and you bet and And [ __ ]

you, I won't do what you tell me. Yeah,

we we we had that and that that was that

was coming through me and and I had to

So I'm just wondering where you

Where did you get that rage from? Or or

maybe you didn't have it. I mean, I'm

told by some people that it's like Mike

Tyson had rage, but some boxers, you

know, they didn't. They could they could

they thought it made them weak. It it

Well, it gets in the way of clear

thinking. And you know, I had this guy

named Yuri Prohaskca on the podcast

recently. He's brilliant fighter who's

in the UFC who is the light heavyweight

champion at one point in time and is

still one of the top light heavyweights

in the world. And we were talking about

anger and rage and that it leads you

down a bad path of decision making when

you're fighting. It interferes with the

flow. It interferes with the way. And

like I was saying before, when you're

competing, you know, and I've never

competed at that level. When you're

competing at a world championship level,

anything that [ __ ] with your mind,

anything where you're doubting yourself

or talking to yourself or all that is

resources that is being allocated

towards something that's completely

useless as opposed to being like

completely in the moment and in the

zone. If you get taken out of it for a

moment, if they feel for a moment that

you're thinking like you're looking for

a way out, you're looking to quit,

you're gone. You're done. Like when your

friend was saying that his son didn't

want to be a fighter anymore, this is my

advice always. Whenever someone says,

"I'm thinking about stopping fighting."

I go, "Quit. Quit right now." Because

somewhere out there, there's someone

who's not thinking about stopping at

all. They're going to [ __ ] you up.

They're going to come for you. It's

going to they're going to it's going to

be terrifying. You're locked in a ring

with Mike Tyson and you've been thinking

about getting a regular job. Like, yeah,

you're [ __ ] You're [ __ ] because

there's allin people. In my opinion, I I

love fighting, but I think only all-in

people should be fighting. And the

moment you're not allin, get out. You

got to get out because the difference

between an all-in person and a one foot

out the door person is enormous. It's

enormous. Even if skill level is

similar, the the person who's allin is a

terrifying person. They they all they

want to do is this one thing and they're

completely focused on it. Just being the

best in the world, this one thing.

They're gonna find holes in you. They're

gonna find they're going to find your

weaknesses. They're going to push you in

a way that maybe you didn't push

yourself as far in the gym. So, come the

second round, come to third round, you

start breaking down, and they're not

breaking down at all. They're breaking

you down. It's a terrifying place to be

when you know you're not all in and the

other person's all in. So, anybody, if

that was my son, he's like, I'm thinking

about quitting. Like, good. Quit. That's

what I'd say. Quit. Find something else

you love. Find what you love. You don't

have to do this. But if you're going to

do this, you got to you got to only do

this. This has to be your [ __ ] life,

right? Your [ __ ] life. I mean, I

don't want you to be a rock star and a

fighter. Shut the [ __ ] up. You can't be

both. It's not possible. If you want to

do that thing, that thing is your whole

life. There's a I don't have any uh

tattoos, but if I did, Kind of amazing

you got this far without no tattoos. Now

if I did it it's I have a um there's a

quote it's from Nietze and I wouldn't

normally quote from Nietze you know I'm

not that interested in Nichze but I he's

done he's written some some some

apherisms that I like and whatever

but in our summer

place where we go to there's a little

trail called the Nietze trail and it's

he apparently came up with this mind

which is for anything truly great to

take place there requires and this would

be my tattoo a long obedience in the

same direction.

Oo that's good. So so that's so and I

think of edge when I think of that. I

don't think of me. I'm I'm sort of I'm

just

I'm I'm I just my in I'm just my

curiosity just takes me into place I

shouldn't be. But that long obedience in

the same direction that's that's what

you're talking about. Yes. Um does it

reply to people to tickling? I always

wonder would it be great if you're I

think the biggest fighter ever and just

little tickle and um it's like maybe

that's that's I don't think that would

work. I think people would have already

tried that totally unaffected. Got to do

it. You're so filled with adrenaline

field tackles. Yeah, you're sparked out.

Do you know there was a comedian called

Ken Dodd I remember from Liverpool when

I was a kid growing up. He had he had a

he had a a feather. He used to just

tickle

people. I'll get the tattoo. You get the

you get the the feather. The feather is

awesome. Oh, it is a funny thing. It

that quote is so accurate. It's it's one

of the greatest quotes of all time. I

think it's a strong quote and and it's

you know it's a person who was he was

pushing

away higher the even the concept of

higher consciousness for a lot of his

life and yet he managing to bump into

it. There's a quote of his I swear I I

had read but when we were doing the book

we couldn't find it anywhere so I might

have made it up but he was he was

because that's the history of that in

our family. Jamie will find it. Um,

well, it's not it's it's a Jamie, it's

it's it's about friendship and I don't

think

it's I don't think so. But it's the idea

is

that friendship

is it is is deeper kind of wider. It's

less dramatic

um than you know romantic love, but it

is it's it's

somehow the essence of great

relationships is is actually friendship.

I think that's niche, but we couldn't

find it. So, I I may have just made it

up. Got though love be deeper,

friendship is more wide from like

Chronicles of Narnia. Oh, I'll take

that, too. Something like that. Thank

you, Jamie. I'll take it. My dad was

funny. Um, he he used to quote this

playright, Irish playright called Sing.

You say about because he was suspicious

of nationalism because in Ireland, you

know, you would be because there was a

country was nearly at civil war and

along sectarian lines. So he used to say

Ireland what is Ireland but the land

that keeps my feet from getting wet. I

thought that's a great quote of sings.

So when we did the book surrender book

was

on. So they went off they couldn't find

it anywhere. They couldn't find the

quote anywhere cuz he made it up. Wow.

And and it's a great quote and I think

it's okay if you say something three

times it's yours. Right. Yeah.

So I'll but you know I'm in a

band

with my friends and that friendship is

pulled and pushed

and it's difficult and at some point one

of us is usually trying to break up the

band but it's a very deep bond. Can I

say something about that I thought was

really great about the film as well. We

went into the fact that it's a true

democracy in your band. Yeah. It's

annoying, isn't it? But it's but I would

expect nothing less from you when when

you said that and I wasn't aware of

that. I was like, of course, of course

that's how you would set it up. Well, we

well it's fine to be a democracy, but we

share things

also e the economics. Yes. That's where

you find exactly and and we had a

manager Paul McInness for most of our

life and it was one of these things he

said just don't ever be fighting about

whose song it is and cuz in the

background it's like I want my song on

the album or I've got two just get rid

of that. Yeah. Just share everything and

make sure that you all feel a stake in

each other. Yes.

And and so the arguments in you

two are never about well this is my idea

so you're really stepping on my toes.

We've developed I would call a sort of

band

ego bigger than individual egos. Even an

ego as big as mine it this is bigger.

This is even bigger. And uh it's the

quiet ones. But um yeah, I think we

we've learned to just the great we don't

we don't argue about what's very

good. Sorry, we do argue about what's

very good. We don't argue about what's

great. So if we're talking about is that

good that chorus? Nah, that guitar. N

you. But it's all for a purpose. We're

all just talking about it. We never But

when it's great, people just back off.

We just know. It's like greatness has

its own what's the word has its

own brings with it a certain

acquiescence to that thing and then you

learn that very good is the enemy of

greatness. It's not even nextdoor

neighbors like we we used to be with you

two we were really crap or great but

then we got very good very dangerous

being very good is not helpful because

there's a chasm chasm between what is

very good and great greatness what you

were talking about there back on on

Jimmy Fallon that's a

moment of greatness it it's it's it's

Not which is different from saying we

were great. It was great and and very

good could be just sitting there playing

the song good. It's it's a very fine

song and these are very fine players but

that could just be very good. It didn't

make that moment that that resonated so

deeply with me that I brought it up. We

we played it multiple times on this

podcast over the years. I I'm I'm really

happy you did. And and that's what the

my friend I forget his name or my friend

that I just met for the first time at

the kitchen table uh who was who had you

know had the guts to say he so

disappointed because this the recording

of that song was just very good. That's

really what he was saying. Yes. Yes. you

hadn't captured like but I think that

unique moment of the way you guys did it

is what made it so special is cuz you

know Jimmy Fallon's sitting there and

Will Smith is sitting there and you're

just on these chairs and you're singing

on the chair and so you're moving on the

chair and then eventually everything

picks up and you're standing up and

dancing and the whole crowd like felt

it. It was like this buildup to it. It

all flowed together, but it just I

haven't seen that back, by the way. So,

really? No, no, I haven't seen it. I

probably saw it on the night or the next

day. Wow. So, I haven't um uh I sent

that to everybody. Yeah, I sent that to

all my friends when as soon as it came

out online. I was like, you got to see

this. This is Thank you um for for that.

But there might be something to do with

the fact that the

four members of that

band feel equally involved in that song.

M there might be and that the the

democracy which is such a pain in the

hole

um is actually one of the reasons that

when you two walks onto a stage people

tell me even if they're

not bands you know they just come along

as guests the hairs come up in the back

of their neck and I explain actually

that happens to us too it's a strange

thing when we walk out. And it seems to

me, I haven't figured this out,

that the the whole the universe

conspires

to break up great relationships, right?

You fall in love, it's romantic. It's

because this this is families now. This

doesn't have to be your partner in life,

your wife, your husband, your but

families, kids, everything. It's it's

just the whole world is just seems set

against it them surviving you know all

the it just pulls at it's like gravity

itself you're

resisting and so when you manage to get

through

it and you're standing there in the

forest and there's something going on

that feels like you've

resisted gravity or whatever forces that

pull you apart. There's something about

it and some nights it's really not easy

and but I mean not the music but the the

friendship and but we we we've we're

through it right now and you you feel it

in these recordings and you'll feel

us in a way rediscovering each other.

That's amazing. I haven't been playing

for that. We just played in London

acoustically at the Ivor Nollas Award

was the first time in five years the

four of us played together because Larry

had a back injury and

um so but yeah, there's something in the

chemistry. Well, there's also the fact

that you guys continue to create because

one of the things that happens to great

bands is they become a prisoner to their

old songs. Yeah. We got to be bit

careful there. Yeah. a lot of bands like

Ordinary Love. That's what's so

beautiful because that's in the

last is that that's like 10 years old or

something. Something along those lines.

Yeah. Which is a mere a mere a minute if

you've been around for we'll be around I

think the first time we met in Larry's

kitchen is it will be 50 years next

fall. Wow. In the kitchen. Wow. Oh,

drummer wants musicians, whatever. We

got We're literally and in the in the

film, you know, we've got the the uh

kitchen table. We got the chairs, you

know, cuz I'm on the road with, you

know, 250 Mac trucks and a space station

and whatever else with you, too. But

here, you could put everything into a

station wagon. It's like a literally a

table and chairs. And the chairs are

Edge, Adam, and Larry. and and I've got

to, you know, I use the the kitchen

table as operating theater. So, it

starts with the s heart surgery. It's

the it's the um hospital bed where I my

father says goodbye with the to me with

the exploitive and um and it's and it's

the kitchen table where all operas

really begin in the kitchen, don't they?

It's like you're sitting there and in

our case it would be me, my father, my

brother, mother's passed and we're just

it's just male rage in its different

shapes and forms. So I get to to be on

the

road with a table and chairs, but then I

get to bring out the chair. There's

Larry. Uh yeah, there's

Edge. There's Adam. I introduced them as

chairs and it was it was amazing for me

to have

that experience of of doing things and

telling their story. If their memoirs

come out, I'm [ __ ] But but no, I

really am. But it's over

[Music]

and I'm done with the past. I'm not sure

the past is done with me, but I'm doing

my very best to deal with the past in

order to get to the

present to make this the sound of the

future. So the songs on the next

album when you

are or whomever you're with or your kids

or whatever are

out the Joshua Tree or whatever it is

park or at the lake here in Austin,

Texas and you're listening to our new

album that we will take you somewhere

because it has to be these songs have to

be they have to be everything or what's

the point, right? What is the creative

process for you when you are when you

have a concept for a song, when you have

an idea like how does it work? Do you do

ideas just come to you? Do you sit until

they come to you? Do you sit in front of

a a pad and write them down? Is it that

has never been an issue? like Edge and

Myself are the sort of song

starters and and I mean he has I think

we were counting them up the last time

he like 526

uh he said qu 526 songs I have here I

said Edge they're not songs they're

ideas and he goes this one's a song and

I go oh yeah that might be and and I

will have and have stuffed in my phone

and in paper and Air India sick bags and

whatever else I've

written my life and the glimpses that

you

get and I don't write out of misery

which is great because I know some

people have to be really miserable

before they write I write out of joy a

lot of the time

sometimes I'm I'm writing my way out of

a situation

but but most times I'm writing my way

into

something and

and especially with this next album, I

just think the world

needs it needs some needs some Yeah.

some wild guitar music, but it also does

not need the blues, right? We're in the

blues right now. Yeah. And um Well,

we're in danger. We're in danger. But

you you did say on one of your recent

podcasts you were saying hold on a

second still more people got access to

water and heat and or air conditioning

than have in the history of the planet.

So we got got to keep we just don't want

to lose that perspective and we don't

want to you know this

incredible thing in in 20 years if you

think about it. I mean maternal

mortality halved more than halfd and

people coming out of extreme poverty

some of this is China some of this is

capitalism some of this is that but it's

I do I don't want to

lose the sense of the next chapter could

be our best

and and that's going to need vision.

Yeah. And I'm not talking about you

two's new album, but but that is part of

it because art changes the collective

consciousness of a civilization and

songs that really deeply resonate with

young people that have a that that are

great songs that also have a message and

carry with them conversations that

people have about the songs and about

what's going on in the world. It shifts

consciousness. It shifts consciousness

in a positive way. Those young people

may grow up to become people that aren't

corrupt politicians, that aren't corrupt

congress, that that don't give in to the

lobbyists and the special interest

groups, but really look out for their

constituents and they they get into it

for the right reasons because

everybody's going to be co-opted if you

don't. But you're

right. Yeah, we better be good then. Um,

and you and I, for me, the go-to group

was the Beatles. And Mhm. And I I had

this moment

where Paul McCartney

um picked me up at John Lennon Airport.

He was driving the car and brought me

and kind of showed me where the

different neighborhoods of the Beatles

and which was an amazing experience. And

he'd stop and he'd say, "Oh, this is

where this happened and that's and he

said, "Do you mind me telling you this?"

And I'm like, "Are you kidding me?" And

and then he stopped at the traffic

lights and he said, "Oh yeah, that's

where I had like our first real kind of

conversation, you know, with with me and

John." I said, "Hold on a second. I'm a

bit of a Beatle student. Didn't you have

that when you were in the Quarry Men and

such?" He says, "No, no, no, no. It was

different

level." He bought a bar of chocolate and

after the war, you know, chocolate was

really hard to come by. you know, it was

kind of a real luxury. And and he bought

the bar of chocolate and he didn't give

me a

square. He broke it. Cadbury's milk

chocolate. Broke it in half. And I said,

"Oh, so you're into sharing, too?" He

said, "Yeah." And he said, "I don't know

why I'm telling you that." And he drove

on. And I just thought, "Oh, I know why

you're telling me that." Greatest

collaboration. Not just in music, in the

history of music, maybe the greatest

collaboration in the history of culture

started with half.

Wow. They shared, they gave it my mate

Gogi, who I just spoke about the who

knows all about you and knows all about

your your your sport.

He taught me everything he had and and

they came you know it was tough at times

as I told you in their house and he just

gave me half of it. Every he got just

half. So when I were in you two and our

manager McInness says you should share

everything. I was like yeah I've been

sharing

everything. I've been sharing everything

anyway and it's and even now age and

myself we're sitting in our house in our

we we share this place in the south of

France. We've been there for 30 years.

All our families kind of grown up there.

French are too into themselves to bother

us which is really the way we like it.

And um and we sit there and we think the

real owners are going to come, right?

You know what I mean? because we still

we still don't really believe this has

happened to us. And you know what? I

think that's probably right because we

don't really own this stuff. You you you

you get it for a short period and then

you hand it on. I think it I think

something about the four and the way we

share is in the sound of our music. I

think is that too No, no, no. I think

you're dead. I think that when you you

know and I was just standing there with

a little tambourine Jimmy found and he's

but it's him playing the tambourine

and and yeah there's something again

there's not much scholarship about this

type of stuff that you can read up on

but it resonates right you can feel yeah

I believe it I think there's something

to it it's it's

a you've got you've made decisions that

have sort of affirmed this

commitment to a higher goal. It's not a

hierarchy of, you know, who's who's the

lead singer, who's this, who's that.

It's not who's the big star. It's just

we're all together to do this thing. I'm

in a band where every member of the band

thinks they're the leader. And I think

that's every band. And uh I mean that

and I voted for this. Yeah. and and it's

sort of great and I think it's worked

out you know and you guys are still

together you know which is also a giant

win you know I mean that's most

difficult run out of road any minute but

but whilst whilst we're whilst we're

running down the road it's it's a it's a

it's a thrill I think that's also what

makes it great is the same feeling that

some the real owners are going to come

like like you never really buy into it

even though it's you And that's that's

real that I think we all should have

that. And I think if you lose that,

you're in trouble. By the way, I think

we should all have that. I I think that

that's right. I call this

uh I'm going to learn some of this from

my wife. He used to say, "Don't, you

know, look up to me. Don't look down at

me as a woman. Look across to me. That's

where I am." Okay? And there was a

lesson in that

about

horizontal relationships rather than

vertical ones. I I don't have a boss. I

don't want to be a boss. Yes. I'm in I I

have that relationship with the band

that is equal. I have it with my mates.

And it's just I it's just the way I I

know it to be the most

efficient.

And you know, the boss is the boss. I

mean, Bruce, it's an amazing thing what

he does. And it's it's his vision and

he's found a team around him to help him

realize his vision. It's like you going

out on on the boards, you write your own

material. It's your point of view.

That's not I'm I'm part of I think isn't

there two stories they say in the

cinema? There's the the gang and the man

against stranger comes to town I think

is one

that's and then there's the stranger

goes off in the Odyssey but usually

there's a gang that's that's a different

story that's a third story maybe I'm in

the gang. Yeah, comedians are in a gang,

too.

Uh, we're in a gang at a club. We're in

a gang together. Like, we all convene

together. And I mean, I I mean a gang in

terms of like a collaborative gang, too.

We work together. We work on ideas

together. We talk about bits together,

you know, especially at my place at the

Comedy Mothership. It's set up like

that. The whole club was set up entirely

for comedians. Completely different pay

structure than any other club. Pays way

more than other clubs do. The comedians

get most of the money. We get most of

the most of the we get the money from

liquor essentially. Liquor and a small

percentage of the ticket sales, but most

of it goes to the comics. And the the

the vibe of the place is not that it's

my place. The vibe is that this is our

place. I I paid the bill, but I

shouldn't have had that much money in

the first place. It's ridiculous. Like

the whole thing is crazy. Like that you

could do something like this. And if you

could do something like this, you're

supposed to. If you're the person that

for whatever reason the universe has

blessed you with a lot of zeros, throw

it at something fun, let's do it. And so

it's ours. And so there's there's that

in comedy, too. Yeah. You can't Well, it

sounds glib actually as I say it, but

you know, I've live we live. You can't

outgive God. No, it's like, you know,

you just the more you the more you

that's and that's what I was saying also

about the blessing on America. You know,

one of the things I do like about some

some of these churches is not the ones

that put pressure on you, but you know,

people will give some cash every week to

help with what's going

on, you know, in far away places or

whatever, and they tithe. I think they

call it tithing. And and

it's it's just part of the blessing of

America. It's this Okay. So it's it's

it's it's

it's less than 1%. It's half of 1% of

the government budget to keep all these

people alive all over the world. They

love America because they love America.

They're not going to be a problem for

America. They don't love it. Takes them

away from terrorism. Takes them away

from

anti-Americanism. It takes them puts

points them in direction of freedom.

That's a blessing. So if you count your

zeros and you say that's mine, that's

ours. We're not sharing that with those

people. The definition of neighbor is,

oh, it's just next door, right? Be

careful

because because there is a bigger

blessing out there. There's just a

bigger blessing and and it most

certainly is and you it sounds like

you're in it and and and and it is in

the bit, by the way, it is in the

business where you'll see it because

people have have a a great mouth on

them. I have a big [ __ ] mouth. But

it's not about what you're talking

about. It's what you're doing. It's how

you're living. It's how you It's That's

the YouTube thing is not just about the

songs. It's the It's the way. You did

you use the word way a minute ago? You

said it's the way when you're fighting.

Yeah. The anything that takes you away.

Sure. What is What did you mean by that?

There's a great quote by Miiamoto

Mousashi. This is the guy I actually

have tattooed on my right arm. It's once

you understand the way broadly, you can

see it in all things.

Beautiful. Yeah. And the the concept is

he was the greatest samurai that ever

lived. He killed 60 men in one-on-one

combat with swords. He got to the point

where he was killing people problem. He

was killing people so easily he decided

to stop using swords and he would like

fashion a wooden sword out of an ore

from a boat on the way over to go kill a

guy. So like googie he he was an

extraordinary human being but he wrote a

book on strategy called the book of five

rings. Yeah. And go read no show the

book of five rings. And it's this book

is all about where is he from? Japan.

All about how you from the 1400s. You

you had to be balanced in everything to

be a great warrior. You had to be great

at calligraphy. You could you had to be

great at poetry. You had to be an

artist. You you had to be able to

meditate. You you had to be balanced.

You had to know the way. And don't let

any [ __ ] This is the modern

interpretation. Don't let your ego Don't

let other people's perceptions. Don't

let insecurities in. Don't let any of

these things in. Stay on the way. And

the way is like this way of thought that

once you how you know everybody says how

you do anything is how you do

everything. This was his earliest

version of it. Wonderful. Once you

understand the way broadly you will see

it in all things. It's that nichi this

path to greatness. Once

you realize what that is, like, oh, this

is this is this intense focus and

dedication to something that could be

applied to anything. You could be apply

you could apply it to being a better

father. You could apply it being to

being someone who writes books. You

could you could apply it to music. You

could apply it to anything. But it's

that's what it is. It's like finding

what the thing is and throwing the

essence of you at that thing. Like

really doing it. And to do that

correctly, you can't have, you know,

macho issues. You can't have insecurity

pro things that you're compensating for.

You you have to be pure. You have to

find and it's a constant struggle. It's

a stunning stunning insights in my path

or I suppose or whatever you call them

my practice. I have this I am the way,

the truth and the life. this what I

learned from Jesus become a bumper

sticker probably taken the the the

meaning of it away but it's but it's the

same thing I've got to because when I

focus on this this kind of this this

radical idea to serve you know you know

to rather than to lead to to be no

greater love and all all this stuff.

Unfortunately, this language has been

ruined for you guys. I'm so sorry. Kind

of. But no, we can get past that. It's

powerful. Yeah, it's real. And it's and

and this this Jesus is a long way

from the one that you you meet on these

kind of sales programs and but it's it's

it is humility and it

is it is it is service and it is

discipline and it is not my will thy

will. It is indeed surrender and anyone

wherever they are in the world, Japan in

1400s or the 15th century wherevery uh

anyone scientists you know the pursuit

of truth it just

gathers there's

um yeah there's there's the there's

there's something about I trying to

think of the word the sort of gathering

where you you you we we will all end up

in the same place if we're

really tr and I'm not talking about life

after death as like you have to you know

enter a competition but we all we're

we're in the same consilience I think is

the word I think it was I think it was I

don't know who wrote I wrote a book

called consilience but it's the idea

that all disciplines all art forms

everything comes together on a point a

kind of convergence but the word is

consilian

And if it isn't, I just made up a great

word. It's a great word.

Go, Jamie. Well, that that those moments

that were That's the book where great

art hits that peak. Oh, really good.

Thank you. That's really good. Jamie's

the best. How did you not off? How long

have I been talking? I mean, three hours

because I this I mean I don't know why

you this my family at this point will be

gone to bed. It' be just the two of us

at the fire. Jamie's locked in. Jamie's

locked in. Like, see you later, dude.

That thing though is like what we all

It's what we we know how hard it is to

reach, too. Like ordinary love. Like

when you guys were doing that, we know

that that's not a first take, you know?

That's not like you just wrote the song

and you guys are out there jamming. No,

that's that's a polished song. And the

fact that you're doing this and you're

you're you're you're doing it acoustic

right there sitting on a chair like

everything is off, right? Like you're

not on the stage. There's not a

spotlight on you. There's no mist.

There's no lights. Like all the

theatrics are removed. You're in a

brightly lit studio sitting down with a

bunch of people beside you, which is

like the most un rock and roll thing of

all time, right? It's corporate almost.

Like no one does that corporate haircut.

And yet you [ __ ] nailed it. And it

that moment it took everybody to a

better place. That's what we're all

hoping for in in everything that we're

hoping for that for our from our

leaders. We're hoping for that one

speech, that one JFK speech where you

just go, "Oh my god." Yes. That's that's

that's the prayer. We don't want to be

Clinton when he was young, he had some

bangers. Obama when he was young, they

had these speeches that made us feel

better about human as human beings,

better about the country. That's the

danger of the conflicted times that

we're in is that people don't feel good

even about America. There's people that

think that the American flag is a symbol

of injustice. It's like it's that's a

crazy thought. Like America is you too.

It's not just you too, the band, but

it's all it's it's us. It's all of us

human beings regardless of your

political ideology. And we got to think

of that first. We're a community. We're

a neighborhood. you know, we we should

think of ourselves as a giant

neighborhood, and we don't. We we think

of ourselves as opposing tribes that are

in in this battle to stay in control of

whatever the direction of the country

is. And it's being orchestrated by

artificial intelligence bots that are

constantly battling with people online

and state actors and intelligence

agencies and money and all this [ __ ] is

together and it's all confusing

everybody as to what is the purpose of

being a human being that's alive with

other human beings. The per the purpose

is community communing. We're supposed

to be a United States. We're supposed to

be a community and all the differences

that we have, the political differences

in the idea, they should be so [ __ ]

secondary that it should be uh a small

part of the elections. A small part of

the election should be policy because we

should just all agree that we should

figure out you want to have a good use

of AI, figure out what's the objective

best use of resources to support the

collective whole and how does that get

accomplished? How does that get

accomplished without fraud and waste?

And what's the best way to to navigate

where it doesn't have fraud? That should

be done whether it's Democrats or

Republicans. It should be like, what are

we looking for? We're looking to clean

up the lakes. We're looking to stop

pollution. We're looking for clean

energy sources. We're looking for

education. We're looking for healthcare.

We're looking for housing. We're looking

to get people off the streets that have

mental health issues. And get them help.

And don't just give them fentinel and

give them money for needles. That's

stupid. Don't let them camp on the

street. That's stupid. Also stupid

ignoring them, right? That's stupid,

too. So, some real resources. And once

we do that, we can all do better. The

whole country can do better. We'll be

less at each other's throats. There'll

be less anxiety. It could be

accomplished. But we have to address the

the primary factor in this

country for crime and horrible behavior.

It's completely disenfranchised

neighborhoods. It's areas that have been

[ __ ] since the 1940s and they're no

they're not doing anything to change

them and no one's pouring any resources

to try there's no plans to try to

revitalize these communities and elevate

these people out of like dire poverty

and gang violence and and and drug use.

There's there's a way to do it. It's not

impossible, but there's no resources put

out it at all. That should be another

thing. That shouldn't be a Republican

thing or a Democrat thing. And why

should we spend money on them? But it

shouldn't be. It should be community.

Look, the people who who voted for

Donald Trump, who I'm not a fan of, and

I know you have respect for him, and I I

respect that. But the people who voted

for him, I have immense respect for them

and their sense that they felt left out

of the American dream. a lot of people

and in so many ways when you know the

world got globalized and a lot of people

did very well out of that particularly

in the global south but everyone in

America I think you

know a lot of people a lot of

communities paid the price for that and

I don't know what the pie was grown for

NAFTA I think was supposed to be a

trillion dollars it ended up being the

pie was was I think it was one and a

half trillion So there was enough money

to reinvest in communities, but it never

happened. And so people were pissed off

if

if and and I'm and I think we should be

with those people. I'm not sure this is

going to be the answer that they're

looking for. And if it's not, I would

encourage people, yes, I'm not American.

I can I I don't vote. I'm Irish. just

you'll know the I I trust in the wisdom

of crowds. I really do. I mean I mean

you too and I you

know Americans will know and they and

they and they must I I can see where

they're going right now. They're trying

out this new version of themsel and

where it's where we're where where we're

not interested in the wider world as

much. We're trying to fix our own

problems. I would say they are bound up

in each other and I would say there's a

higher purpose for America than the one

that's being offered presently. But I

don't want to get into the politics. I

think it's an overcorrection.

Yeah. I think I just don't you know I I

really hope so because we really really

really need you. the world. We need

America and this this European project

we we have a land war on the outskirts

of

Europe. It is the most astonishing thing

and and it and we don't know what's

next. Poland, have you ever you know the

Polish people have two million

Ukrainians staying with them and never

complain these are the most remarkable

people you'll ever meet. There's all

that money that was invested in by guess

who? George C. Marshall, a an an

American general who became Secretary of

State who had the cleverness to say

after the the war the second world war

and I think it was like 4% of the GDP

where it's invested in in the rebuilding

of Europe and the idea was we have to

make Europe

succeed and that's how we will defeat

communism. And so when Ronald Reagan,

you know, pronounced a death sentence on

this the Soviet Union and the

reason Mikuel

Gorbachoff threw his hands up and and

said we've got to this project is over

is because he knew that people could see

it was dysfunctional. He knew that was a

better life across the wall, the other

side of the Iron Curtain. And sometimes

it takes putting your money where your

mouth is to show what freedom is.

America did that. We owe America. And

and we need you. That's all I want to

say. We we need we we need you. And and

together. Wow. There's 450 million

people in Europe. It's like, you know,

we don't be fighting with the Canadians,

the Mexicans here, right? You put all

this together, this is

formidable. And these

boring people who are listening to your

probably tuning in now what they

think. They said something about the

goods

country like it. And and he hit the

mushroom. It's like you wouldn't know.

You've never been lifted by music, sir.

You know, you know, you wouldn't know.

You send people to death. build some

baloney up the bum. This is like come

on. It's like you come in. Your time's

up. And I, you know, I know we want to

rewrite history and all the rest of it,

but but you can't do that. We are free

people. And it is great to be free. And

I I I don't want to stop singing songs

about freedom. I want to be it. And

that's what we talked about earlier.

That's I think as human beings there's a

constant struggle. I think there's a

constant struggle to find the path and I

think we go through a series of

overcorrections and a series of going

really far left and really far right and

you know order disorder reorder. That's

a Richard Roars thing. It's part of the

battle of good and evil. There's there's

a thing that's Well, do you believe

there's good and evil? I do. I do. I I

believe it. But I I think it's naive to

think that if evil acts occur, there is

no true evil. I think it's naive and

evil acts are undisputable and the

concept of evil has always existed. I I

I think there's and we can become part

of it. You've seen it outside a pub when

people the somebody's down, kid goes

down, people are just kicking. You've

seen it at a football match. Well,

probably in American football you you

don't, but in in Europe, in football, in

soccer, you see mad violence and it's

like a spirit. You can watch it in a

crowd. Yeah. And and it's we've, you

know, look, we've we've all been part of

it. None, it's not like we're separate

from it. We can It's an entanglement,

right? But rarely is evil so obvious.

this great um there's a great book by by

Bulgakov called The Master in the

Margarita. Have you heard about this?

No. So, the devil appears in the

rooftops of Moscow and he goes, "Oh,

this is going to be fun. Nobody believes

I exist." It's one of the great The

Stone Sympathy for the Devil. I think

that's inspired by him. But this it's

some it's insidious. Sometimes evil is

harder to spot. But I think we know we

we kind of know it when we when we see

it at full force. We just can't be

afraid of sounding foolish. No. And when

you say that e I think evil is a real

thing. You you can you can't measure it.

You can't prove it exists. But you know

that's what I say. You know but science

you know science we we need science. We

don't need science to prove that evil

exists. We we need religion to suggest

it that it exists and how we might deal

with it and in ourselves first I would

suggest you were talking about fighting

the biggest opponent you it would appear

is your is indeed yourself. You're up

against yourself. I've got to that place

and I'm not a sportsman competent but

just in my own walk I really is wow all

these people I thought I was you know I

was up against you know in my head it's

it's yourself yes I love this thing of

the way I'm going to remember that and I

love the truth and and I

love I love I love I love being alive I

love the life I'm going And I'm I'm

going to hold on to that. Please do. And

keep doing whatever you're doing, man. I

appreciate you very much. Thank you.

Thank you for coming here. It was a lot

of fun. Absolutely. Loved it. And

absolutely. I enjoyed it.

[Applause]

[Music]

Joe Rogan Experience #2330 - Bono

TLDR

Timeline

Bono's Initial Skepticism and the Audience's Positive Response

Bono's Definition of Art and Embracing Ridiculousness

U2's Performances and Bono's Desire for Looseness on Stage

Bono's Evolving Relationship with His Father Through Performance

Bono's Attraction to Feral Performers and Realness in Art

Bono's Relationships with Johnny Cash and Frank Sinatra

America's Essence as Sticking Up to the Bully

Bono's Concern about America's Relationship with the World

Challenges of Free Speech and the Importance of Humor

Bono's Reflection on U2's Performances and Spiritual Experiences

Balancing Science and Religion in the Pursuit of Truth

The Shared Experiences and Equal Power Within U2

Key To Greatness is Service Not Ego

Audio Summary

Transcript

Detailed Summary