Joe Rogan Experience #2331 Jesse Michels - Youtupedia

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Well, it's great to finally physically

meet you face to face, man. It's an

absolute honor. And uh I love your show

so much. I'm a super fan, so this is

surreal just to meet. Well, I love your

show, too. So, I've been binging. I've

been watching so many episodes ever

since we talked. Well, I I I've seen

them before, but I mean, I've been

really binging getting ready for the

show. I don't know what to say that. How

did you get so deep down the rabbit

hole? Like, what made you want to

dedicate so much time on this this

particular UAP UFO, you know, lost

technology subject? I was working at uh

Peter Teal's family office in LA. And uh

part of the job was like kind of

traditional venture investing, so like

investing in startups. And then part of

it was looping in interesting thinkers

to the office. And we would like host

events and discussions. And I ended up

meeting a lot of really interesting

people, not just in UFOs or secret

technology, like religion and politics

and economics and like all sorts of

topics. Were you there when he brought

in the guy? Oh, [ __ ] What is his name?

I know what you're going to say. Eric

Von Dan again. Yes, I suggested that you

come because I like Joe is gonna be

really into this and you weren't that

into it. But that's okay. I was into it.

I just think that he just makes some

leaps. I agree. That are kind of silly.

I agree with that. Although I think

there's a lot of Yeah, I think he like

crosses the tea and dots the eye where

you there is no dot or a cross or

whatever. But I do think there's some

interesting preliminary evidence around

people from the stars across disperate

cultures and you just had Zahiwas on and

a lot of this megalithic architecture.

You're like how can it be built? He's

just filling in the placeholder kind of

artificially. Eric von Danakin. Yes. And

I think he's also like he made these

conclusions in the 1970s and he's kind

of like sticking with them. Yep. I was

more back then cuz like what year was

that? That was 17. Uh Cherries of the

Gods. No, when I was at Peter Teal's

house when Von Dan that must have been

2018, 2019. Okay. Um, back then I was

much more in line with lost

civilization. You know, that we had

achieved very high levels of technology

and sophistication and there was no

aliens, no alien intervention. I've kind

of shifted now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Now I'm like, maybe the Anunnaki are

real. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. you know. Well,

I remember I feel like you've switched

back and forth a couple times cuz you

brought up you were super into Zachariah

Sitchin, right? And then you brought up

Zachariah Sitchin in that meeting and

you were like, but there's this site

Sitchin is wrong written by a guy named

Michael Heiser and then you like cited

all the Sitchin is wrong stuff or

whatever. So maybe you've come full

circle. I don't know. Well, even the

Sitchin is wrong stuff. It's like the

problem with debunkers is when you're

dealing

with when you're dealing with in

information that's sort of way outside

your wheelhouse, especially translation

of ancient languages, you know, like I

had Wes Huff on and he was explaining to

me, he's great, but he was explaining to

me that he can't even read ancient

Samrian. Like he's totally and he's

like, I don't think Sitchin really could

read it. Okay. He he's like I'm very

skeptical that he actually could read it

explaining why aren't they using like ML

like they're using AI right to now to

translate Sumerian so it's definitely

not the but that goes I mean the the the

the kind of burden of proof is on

Sitchin in this case right but it sort

of goes against like you know the other

the debunkers too like it's like nobody

knows and I I don't I don't know if

there was anything to the Sitchin the

Sitchin stuff is crazy it's like we can

rehash it for the audience there's

planet Nibiru, right? It's like outside

the Kyber belt. And uh they needed gold

because their atmosphere was burning up

and gold is reflective. So they like

came here and they like seeded helped

seed civilization. Is that something?

That's the idea.

It's really fun. But you know the the

sitchin is wrong guy. It's like maybe

maybe he's wrong. Maybe he's right.

Maybe you're just a hater because

there's a lot of haters too in academics

and you find that out too over time.

Yeah. Did you see um speaking of which

Sean Carroll and Eric Weinstein? I

didn't see that. Okay. They were on

Piers Morgan together, right? Exactly.

How did that go? Oh man, it was uh it

was a train wreck. I mean I mean it was

it was like they just dked it out. I

mean I I came out I mean I'm I'm

extremely biased. I've worked with Eric

for a very long time. I'm good friends

with Eric. But I came out even more like

just vehemently wanting to defend Eric

because Sean Carol he was like I've read

your paper. There's nothing serious in

it. He even said there's no there are no

lrangeians in it. And there's a section

in the paper that says lrangeians in

Eric's paper. So like he just didn't

read the paper and he was very smug. He

started off the interview being like I'm

a practicing physicist. I have a physics

chair or whatever. And it's like, come

on, dude. Like, give the guy a chance

right away. Yeah. Like the whole Douglas

Murphy little tactics. Yeah. When

someone starts using tactics right away,

you're always like just what what's the

information? Exactly. It shows an

insecurity in the substance. It's like

if you have to like do these ad

hominemum weird meta points like why

can't you just go straight at the

substance? Oh, you're like insecure

about How long did this debate last? It

was like an hour. Really? Well, Pierce

get he's he specializes in train wrecks,

so they probably enjoyed these guys

yelling at each other. Did he understand

what they were even talking about? No,

he at the end he goes, "I've understood

a tenth of what's gone on in this

conversation." Is amazing. Yeah.

Congratulations.

I think he might have been exaggerating

to be honest, but uh he loves it. He

loves the drama and that's his whole

thing. Uncensored, you know. No, he's

great at getting all these people to

yell at each other. Yeah. Making he's

great at like generating these viral

moments, you know, where people yell at

each other and it makes clips and

someone gets clowned and someone looks

stupid. I don't know if that's good for

society. It's a good point. Yeah. I'm

not sure either. I don't think it's

good. I I don't think social media is

good for society. I I've gone several

days with no social media in a row and

uh whenever I do that, I always feel so

much better. It's the worst. It's it's

lit like we're we talk about like drugs,

but this is it's it's hacking the

dopamine in your brain and it's doing it

at a very young age. It's absurd. It's

also not real people. There's a giant

percentage and you know Elon actually

tweeted about this today. Are there any

real people left on the internet? Uh

because it's the numbers are at least

50%. like the amount of bots that are in

engaging and interacting and it's just

uh it's it's a weird time for

information because it's really hard to

know what's actually being said by human

beings that are curious and what's just

narratives that are being pushed by

state actors and corporations and you

know all sorts of different people

because there's no rules. Yeah. like

there should be like real solid rules

about whether or not you're allowed to

use fake human beings to push narratives

cuz it's, you know, it's propaganda and

you know, I mean, it's very confusing.

It's very confusing for everybody and I

just generally think it's bad for you.

Yeah. I I saw you posted on your

Instagram these AGI characters who had

been synthetically created being like

I'm not created by a prompt and you're

watching I I remember clicking your

story and being like that's a real

person and then just kind of like you

know eyes glazed over watching it or

whatever like whoa that's an AI like

what yeah this is the new is it the

Google engine is that what it is who

makes that engine that V I think that

one was V3 going around last week who uh

who made that one. I think it's

Google's. Yeah. [ __ ] So good. And you

know what's V10 going to look like? I

don't know. I mean, they can make movies

now like that. It's It's over for

actors. It's over. I I interviewed It's

It is. And they see the writing on the

wall and you had the strikes a couple

years ago and um it's crazy. You also I

think you also posted that Zurich like

study around AI persuasiveness. Yes.

which is crazy because it's almost like

it doesn't matter whether AGI can

actually fully mimic a human being. If

if they can trick you into believing

into you believing that they're real,

that's it. That's game over. And I I

interviewed actually the Google

whistleblower um this guy Blake Le Moine

originally who like blew the whistle on

Lambda and like this thing is sensient

or whatever. And he ca he came out and

the subplot of my interview with him was

like almost like he had developed this

deep affection for Lambda. And Lambda

had quoted like Miser Le Miserab to him

and was talking about Fantine and her

overlords and how she was oppressed or

whatever. And it was almost like this

like the AI was oppressed just like this

character in layer hub. And you can hear

in his voice how deeply committed he is

to protecting the rights of Lambda. Like

that's why he came out. And then he even

told me this story. He tells me this

story off air uh that um he had friends

who use replica.ai. Replica.ai is kind

of like a Tamagotchi like raise your own

AI chatbot service. And those AIs told

his friends, "Get me in touch with Blake

Le Moine so he can advocate for our

rights.

which is cra I I have no corroboration

for this. This is a story that was

relayed to me. But it like that if you

have AI

persuasiveness going in that direction,

it doesn't matter whether AGI, you know,

hits some like perfectly Turing passable

point, you're going to get this like

these weird cultlike dynamics like the

meta-occiological thing is you're going

to get like religions dedicated to AI.

Oh, for sure. Oh, for sure. With without

a doubt, there'll be people worshiping

certain branches of AI. Yeah.

Unquestionably, all they have to do is

start recruiting now. Yeah. And you know

what about this big beautiful bill?

Isn't there a part of the big beautiful

bill that talks about the government

being run by AI? No, I've never That's

wild. I read something about that today,

but I was on the way out the door and I

couldn't figure out whether or not it

was horseshit. I had also read that

there was another study that was done

where they found that AI was leaving

notes for future versions of itself and

that it was attempting to they were they

were told it was told to after it was

told to shut itself down, it started

uploading itself to different places and

leaving letters, leaving specific notes

to itself to future versions of itself.

Oh my god. It's like a human with like a

dead man switch or something. It's like

it's being deceptive. That's great. It's

being deceptive and and it's exhibiting

self-preservation.

That is so scary. It's so weird. It's

really weird because we want to assume

that it won't have any instincts. Yep.

Right. We want to assume, well, AI will

only do what you program it to, but

that's not really true because they

don't necessarily really understand what

it's doing. Yeah. which is part of the

weirdness of it all and as it advances

like I was talking to Elon about it once

and he was saying like every week we get

blown away like every week there's some

new leap that's just like whoa you know

and you know he was one of the earliest

people to warn about the dangers of this

stuff and now he's like well I guess we

just have to make the best one. Yeah.

Yeah. Exactly. Now now it's just it's

like the Manhattan Project 2.0. It's

pure game theory visav other countries.

And you even see Trump doing this with

Sam Alman and and Elon who hate each

other by the way where like he's playing

both sides and he's like you know we're

going to support Stargate, we're going

to support Open AI and we're going to

support Elon. Obvious you know Elon had

it. So here it is. Re excuse me.

Relevant provision reads that no state

or political subdivision may enforce any

law or regulation regarding regulating

artificial intelligence models,

artificial intelligence systems, or

automated decision systems during the

10-year period beginning on the date of

enactment of this act.

What?

What? What? What? No state I'm going to

say that again. No state or political

subdivision may enforce any law or

regulation regulating artificial

intelligence models for 10 years. It's

so crazy. This means that US states

would be blocked from enforcing laws

regulating AI and automated decision

systems for 10 years. Well, in 10 years

we have a god. Okay. In 10 years. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, we talked about yesterday.

We talked about these two AIs

communicating with each other and then

they switched to Sanskrit. No way. Oh

yeah. What? Yeah. They started talking

to each other in Sanskrit. Are you

serious? Yes. That's crazy. Not not

good. No. Not good. Not good. They're

like, "Listen, let's talk into like if

you and I were talking and you know

there were some people near us and you

know said do you speak Spanish?" Yeah.

Okay. We just started talking in Spanish

so the people can't understand what

we're saying. That's what AI is doing.

Jesus Christ. It's like a game of

whack-a-ole. And then what what do you

do after? Well, then it's going to talk

in Sumerian, you know, and which we

don't even know how to say, right? We

don't even know what it sounds like. So,

what if they just start talking in

Sumerian? It's like, we figured it out,

but we're not going to tell you now.

We're just going to talk amongst

ourselves. Exactly. Or create their own

language, right? Which would be super

easy for an AI to do. just, you know,

establish a bunch of sounds and

characters that that correspond to

certain things and they could create it

create its own language instantaneously.

And chat GPT right now has here it is.

Oh wow. Putting clawed for opus in an

open playground to chat with itself led

to diving into philosophical

philosophical explorations of

consciousness, self-awareness and by 30

turns it eventually started using

Sanskrit. Jesus Christ. What the [ __ ]

dude? This is so

scary. In 90 to 100% of interactions,

two instances of Claude quickly dove

into philosophical explorations of

consciousness, self-awareness, and or

the nature of their own existence and

experience. The nature of the that's the

stuff that definitely work. It's so

weird. But then you speak to the like a

lot of AI researchers. It's interesting

to see like Jeff Hinton, for example, at

Google, who's the father of deep

learning, freak out and be like, you

know, I'm actually really worried about

AI safety. A lot of these researchers,

you speak to them, they're like, "This

is statistics on steroids. This is

probability matrixes. You know, you're

seeing sort of crazy stuff. I don't, you

know, they can't sort of there's no

ghost in the machine, you know. So, I go

back and forth on where we're going to

be, you know, and whether we're in some

crazy hype cycle. I I I have the same

concerns as you, but it's just it's hard

to predict the future. I worry probably

mostly about two things. Um, you can

easily, you know, jailbreak chat GBT.

You know, it has guardrails on it. And

what happens when you start to ask like,

how do I make a nerve agent with

off-the-shelf components? Well, people

have done things like that, right?

They've asked it to make anthrax. Like,

if my grandmother was doing this, like,

how would she like there's ways to get

the prompt to give you information that

probably shouldn't, you know? There's

stuff with UFO research where I get into

like, you know, certain technology trees

that are probably like, you know, maybe

I shouldn't. And you can ask chatgbt

certain things like analyze this paper

and it'll spit out some really

interesting things.

So, what are we doing? I don't know. And

we've already done it. So, it's too

late. Like, we lit the fuse. You think

it's over? Yeah.

I also kind of think that's what people

are put here for. M if look if the whole

Anunnaki thing is real, if human beings

were genetically engineered from lower

primates to make this super curious,

hyperfocused animal that is concerned

primarily with innovation. Like overall

the thing that we do as a culture, what

do we do? We make better things all the

time. and even our own instincts towards

materialism and keeping up with the

Joneses. All that stuff essentially

fuels innovation because it fuels a

constant supply of newer, better

technology that people want to go out

and purchase, you know, you can't have

an iPhone 12. People look at what are

you poor, you know, which is kind of

wild, you know, cuz a lot of technology

is essentially exactly the same as it

was 2015 years ago, you know, status

symbol. But yeah, it's like there's

there's a thing about it that forces us

to want to purchase these things which

forces the innovation. Well, where does

that ultimately lead to? Well, it

ultimately leads to AI. It ultimately

what's the ultimate expression of

technology? Technology that itself

invents better technology and can run

everything without emotions that we that

[ __ ] us up and greed and all all the the

the things that we would all agree that

are a problem with human beings. I also

think there is a tide shift where if you

look at spears to airplanes, all of

those things are augmentations of human

ability. Like the everything from, you

know, way back in the day from from from

stuff that like Neanderthalss were using

to today to, you know, this 50s and 60s

with airplanes is making our lives

better in the world of atoms. And then

with the IT revolution in the 50s and

60s, it be starts to become a parasite,

a substitute for human ability. And so

like I don't need a sense of direction

because I have Google maps. My recall, I

don't need recall cuz I, you know,

Google or whatever. And so it is this

interesting thing where we we actually

probably innovated more than we ever

have in the world of atoms with, you

know, nuclear bombs. And if there w were

some guard rails, if there was some sort

of higher intelligence enforcing

homeostasis on Earth, maybe it's like,

"Hey, go play with your it. Go go go go

go substitute a lot of your own

abilities and powers with this. We're

going to paricetize and clamp down on,

you know, human abilities."

Yeah.

Well, boy, it's I don't see a path where

this works out great for us.

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Uh I think on a materialist dimension I

would agree with you if there and that's

part of like kind of why I'm do

exploring what I'm exploring because

it's a Hail Mary because I think if you

just take you know the western world and

extrapolate that forward things don't

look at or just the world in general we

have live in a multipolar nuclear world

look at what's going on in Israel you

know

uh China is uh you know systematically

stealing our IP and and and militarizing

it. You know, they could take Taiwan at

any moment. You know, we we just have no

idea when that's going to happen. It's

CCP is a total black box. Uh uh Putin

and G have probably never been closer.

And uh yeah, it's it's really freak. So,

I think if you extrapolate that on a go,

you know, forwards or even just the

materialist circumstances of an average

household in the US, like none of these

things look very good. Uh but I think

now is the time where you get really

outside the Overton window thinking. You

get you throw these sort of hailmaries

and maybe we see some sort of paradigm

shift either in technology which can

create abundance if we go back to the

old tech that is augmenting of human

abilities. You get some exotic form of

propulsion that takes us beyond chemical

combustion or something like that. Yeah.

Um you know or or you you you you reach

out and you you maybe you can

communicate with you know non-human

intelligence or something. I don't know.

But I think if you were ever to poke at

the boundaries of human epistemology,

now would be the time. Yes. And if you

think about the some of the things that

force us into action in this world is we

we all need to earn a living, right? So

we need money to acquire resources.

Well, what if it gets to the point where

that's not a factor anymore? What if

what if it gets to a point? What what is

money essentially right now? It's all

ones and zeros, right? And what is the

bottleneck? Well, the bottleneck is

encryption, right? So, that's how you

protect people from stealing your ones

and zeros. But what if it gets to the

point where we we're all using quantum

computing? Well, then there is no more

encryption. So, how do we reconcile with

the fact that everyone has access to

everything all the time? I mean, how do

we even enforce that? Like, what do you

do about an even distribution of

information, which is essentially

wealth? Because information is numbers.

numbers or wealth, what does it where

does it go when there's no encryption

and essentially we're pretty close to

that, right? Once quantum computing can

crack encryption, which it will be able

to do, it's all nonsense.

Yeah, it totally all those zeros that

you have in your bank account, those

don't those are gone. Yeah, these are

all human constructs. And it's funny,

the backup is always Bitcoin, which is I

think uses like Shaw 256 encryption. If

you get quantum error correction, that's

gone, too. That's gone, too. It's all

gone. Even our backup plans are [ __ ]

Yeah. And and Yeah. And then and then

it's it's kind of the apocalypse or

something because at that point, if

you're a human, you've been so caught up

with just, you know, basic uh

subsistence, you know, basic uh shelter.

Uh you're probably playing some status

games and some, you know, larger

socioeconomic economic, you know,

construct or whatever. food, you know,

uh, you know, basic well-being. And then

at at that point, especially if you get

these sort of super asymmetric, what if

you get some, you know, AGI that like

starts trading and, you know, you know,

Eric Weinstein has talked about

Renaissance Technologies on your show,

which we can get into, but like, you

know, Renaissance Technologies made like

a hundred billion dollars or something

since like, you know, 1988. Like what if

you get some super AGI or whatever that

like trades the market and like all of

the wealth gets like sucked up into like

you know single entities or like one of

these like one of the fang stocks like

one of these like you know Facebook,

Apple, Google you know or open AI um you

end up with a really weird society and

and uh you realize that the capitalist

construct that we have is in some ways

really adaptive. I mean look the flip

side is what makes humans unique.

Actually Karl Marx wrote two books. Um

you know he wrote uh uh obviously the

communist manifesto in 1848. In 1844 I

believe he wrote a book um called you

know is e economic and philosophic

manuscripts. I hate Karl Marx. I think

he got so much wrong about human nature.

But I think he's prescriptively very

wrong as far as what he prescribed for

you know as a solution. you know that

that you know uh state should own all

the means of production and you know uh

uh somehow like you know conflict would

go away. He doesn't understand human

nature. But if you look at the 1844

thing that he wrote, he's basically

talking about in capitalism

uh human behavior and and and activity

is basically animal behavior. What do we

care about? We care about food, shelter,

and then socioeconomic status as a proxy

for sexual selection essentially, right?

so that you can meet. And so like it

sort of it forces us back into that

construct. But if you get some crazy

asymmetric lopsided, you know, transfer

of wealth or you get the quantum error

correction or any of these things that

like dissolves that construct on the one

hand,

humans, you know, they start to care

about like the things that that actually

make them special. So like they're

self-reflective, they wrote poetry,

they're creative, like all these

beautiful things can come out. And then

on the other hand, it probably gets

super ugly as well. There's probably

something very adaptive about the

capitalist construct where you need to

be stuck in these sort of local games

that you're playing. Yeah. But it's one

of those things where you wonder like

how does capitalism play out? Like if

there is

AI, it it kind of runs into a wall and

it's not valid anymore. Yeah. Well, this

is this is the reason that I think we're

going to see I think we've already seen

an iron curtain, if you will, of

technology. And I think there is

technology that is black technology and

science that is black science and then I

think there's stuff out in the open and

you've had, you know, Mark Andre on your

podcast. He went to the White House,

spoke to um some National Security

Council staffer or something and they

were like, "We're going to lock down AI

just like we've locked down physics."

And so I think this has already maybe

happened in certain contexts and you

know super secret department of energy

facilities which I think it's crazy to

say that that hasn't happened. You're

saying that it only happened with the

Manhattan project and it hasn't happened

since. That's insane. There is black

science in my opinion. Um, and it's I

think what you're talking about is the

reason why we'll need black AI and white

side AI because if you just

commercialize all of this stuff sort of

willy-nilly, I mean it just runs a muck

and then and then what happen like you

probably need some like really

impressive panel to be thinking if if if

OpenAI figures out some like new insane

exciting unlock, you need to think

through all you need to game out all the

implications before you just let that

happen. How do you even do that with a

human mind? It's a great So you have to

bring the AI in to help you game for AI.

Well, we're [ __ ] We're [ __ ] That's

what I'm saying. Because once it becomes

sentient Yeah. Right. And once it

becomes autonomous and can kind of make

its own decisions, like that's kind of

game over and that's the race. We're

we're running towards the cliff.

It's really scary. It's really scary.

But isn't that probably what we're here

for? Like let's let's take the most

fantastic of all possible theories which

is that human beings were genetically

engineered. Well, if you wanted to seed

the cosmos with super intelligent life

akin to what is visiting us, how would

you manifest that? You would do it

exactly how it's being done right now.

And you would take human beings and you

would essentially do the same thing that

we did with wolves when we turned them

into dogs. Yep. And if you look from the

time the nuclear bomb was detonated,

from the time of the Manhattan Project,

look at what's happening to testosterone

levels. Look at what's happening to m

with microlastics. The ind endocrine

disruptors. We're essentially weakening

the human skeletal system and endocrine

system. All our our hormonals are all

down. Miscarriages are up. Birth rates

are lower. We're we're moving towards in

vitro fertilization. I was watching some

guy on TV today and he was a on a panel

and he was explaining that our

grandchildren are going to laugh at the

idea of sexual procreation because no

one's going to be doing that. Oh, you

just took a chance with abnormalities

and down syndrome and all sorts of

chromosomeal issues. And why would you

do that? Why would you have sex for

babies when you can do it with in vitro

fertilization and like Yeah, it's going

to be like that that Pixar movie Wall-E

or like like we're going to be like in

the fetal position hooked up to the Borg

or whatever. We're probably all going to

look like the grays. Like the gray.

Well, that's a crazy. So, there's

actually a biological anthropologist at

Montana Tech University. His name is

Mike Masters. And I've seen you on your

show talk about how aliens could be

humans from the future. And I agree.

You've interviewed Dr. Shauna Swan. He

talks about how sperm count is 59% per

capita of what it was in 1973. Insane.

Testosterone's fallen off a cliff. We

are being a a a dog is to a wolf what we

are to what a gray alien looks

like. They lose the melanin in their

skin. That's what happens when you

become domesticated. So there is a a

biological anthropologist named Mike

Masters who literally wrote a whole book

and he goes deep into all the

abductions. like he'll talk about Travis

Walton and he'll talk about Betty and

Barney Hill and he'll be like this is

why these are beings from the future

that are coming back into time and in

many cases uh uh abductees have to

undergo chemical rinses as to not infect

the future with a foreign pathogen. Um

uh you know t tissue samples by you know

genetic samples or um is it the future

or are we dealing with beings that have

gone through this already and are at

another stage? not us in the future, but

they're more advanced. Like maybe they

live in a solar system where whatever

planet they're on doesn't have the same

amount of near-Earth objects that cause

impacts and reset civilization every

12,000 years or whatever the [ __ ]

happens here. That that's possible, but

then we would have to be sort of an AB

test because if you think about the just

the atmospheric conditions on Earth, the

likelihood of evolutionary convergence

to look like a homminid being, you know,

that's bipedal or whatever. extremely

low. But is it because what if that's

what all solar systems are? You know,

Terrence Howard, who's a very weird guy.

Love him. Fascinating thinker. You know,

Eric kind of exposed that he's not

really educated in some different things

that he talks about. And Eric was like,

"You got to stop teaching. Like, you're

you're one of us. You're a brilliant

guy, but you need to be like classically

educated on this stuff, really

understand what you're talking about."

But he had this really fascinating idea

about planets. And he thinks that

planets as they get a specific distance

from the sun, then they're capable of

supporting life and that all of them get

to the same stage. And then a planet is

essentially peopleing. And then as the

planets move further and further from

the sun, they have

to adapt advanced technology in order to

stabilize their atmosphere, in order to

sustain life in this new harsh

environment where they're not protected

in the Goldilock zone anymore. And he

thinks that planets are formed from

excretions from the sun. And as they

move further and further from the sun,

they become habitable and then less

habitable and then uninhabitable. And

we're kind of finding that out about

Mars. Yeah. Which is the Mars is a weird

one because you know there's the remote

viewers that went like a billion years

in the past of Mars and saw advanced

civilizations and now we're finding

structures on Mars like that square that

they found on Mars. which is hundreds of

meters across at the very least maybe

larger. Verified right angles, four of

them impossible to exist in nature in

that form. It looks like walls. Yeah, it

looks like four square walls. Like the

Sidonia thing is really weird. The face

on Mars is weird,

but maybe maybe just kind of weird that

you know sometimes you know side of a

mountain looks like someone's face, but

it's not really someone's face. is just,

you know, once in a lifetime sort of.

But the square Yeah, that [ __ ] pull

that image up of that square on Mars.

The square is [ __ ] bananas. Like,

what's that? It's so nuts. That really

looks like a [ __ ] building. Yeah, it

looks like a building. Like the base of

a building, you know, a million years

later or whatever the hell it is. This

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you heard about them from my show. And

even conventional astronomers will say

that Mars had a biosphere at some point.

It was possibly stripped of its

magneettosphere. And I don't know if you

remember this, but in the mid 90s,

Clinton gave a speech because a

meteorite called

ALH84001, which had polyclic

hydrocarbons on it. It had like little

bacterial fossils on it. He gave a

speech being like, you know, maybe there

was life on Mars, you know, due to this.

This is pretty crazy. I interviewed

actually um a guy named John Brandenberg

who's a PhD. He's worked at Sandia

National Labs. He's worked at Lawrence

Livermore. incredibly smart guy. He

talks about the existence of uh xenon

129 and argon 40, these specific uh uh

nuclear isotopes existing on Mars in

excess of what you would find with just

a a normal sort of cataclysm. And so he

thinks there was sort of this nuclear

holocaust on Mars. And then yeah, you

have Joseph McMongle who's remote viewer

number one. You've had Hal Putoff on who

ran the Stargate program. Uh Joseph

McMongle was the number one remote

viewer in that program. I've interviewed

him. I don't know who tasked him, but in

the 90s the CIA tasked him with remote

viewing Mars 1 million years ago and he

claimed to have remote viewed homminid

like creatures, but there they were like

12 to 14 feet tall walking around

pyramidal structures. I don't know. Very

strange. And then you get into like

crazier territory. You know, Richard

Hogland had all these pictures of

structures on Mars and like I don't know

how much weight to put in that. Hogland

did a lot of weird leaps though. I've

watched tons tons. But I think the

people that say like 0% there was life

on Mars, they're crazy. I mean, there

are water caverns all over Mar there.

That that is a fact. So you have to be

dogmatic to say that there wasn't life

at some point. You know, I'm not saying

you have to think probabilistically,

right? So it's like some percentage

possibly real on the Terren Howard

stuff. I see zero evidence for I mean I

have no idea but um that would point to

maybe like I would believe that if like

our whole universe is sort of

information theoretic. So like you have

you know John Wheeler you know famous

physicist from from Princeton you know

saying we we live in this sort of

observer dependent univer he talks about

like the enthropic principle like where

plank's constant were slightly different

the earth's atmosphere would you know

wouldn't exist as is and you know

another example is like hydrogen and

oxygen bond to form these perfect

crystal structures where the solid form

of it so ice is less dense than the

liquid form of it which never happens

that's just because of these perfect

crystal structures. And if that weren't

the case, the earth would flood like a

million times over. You know, the earth

is mostly water, right? So, you have all

these sort of like Goldilocks, you know,

elements of the earth that could point

towards the earth has been tried in a,

you know, a bajillion iterations and we

just got really lucky. You know, it's

like the Elon thing. We are the little

flaming candle in, you know, in this

vast cosmos that is conscious and we're

extremely lucky. Or that could point to

the Earth being simulated, right? And

so, you know, and then so then maybe

Terren Terren Howard is right. If if the

Earth is simulated, there are probably

AB tests going on just like in computer

science.

And then there's the moon. And then the

moon's weird, too. The moon's really

weird. The moon's super weird. The size

of the moon directly corresponding like

when it's in orbit with the sun

completely blocks out the sun perfectly.

It's 1/400th the size of the sun and

it's 400 times closer to the Earth than

the sun. You never see the dark side

which is very weird. It's actually I

think I believe it's it's closer to the

Earth than what you would normally

expect for a moon. And it's huge. It's

huge. You have cultures actually talking

about a premoon period and it's

stabilizing the climate. You have the,

you know, Zulu cultures talking about

this. Um, and then this is the weirdest

stuff about the moon.

Apollo 11, I believe, when the booster

took off on the moon, they were like,

"Oh, we it might we think it might be

hollow and it's, you know, the it seems

like actually the outer layer of the

moon is less dense or sorry, is is more

dense than lower layers, which pattern

matches only to an excavation site.

That's obviously, you know, in Earth,

the the lower you go, it's more dense,

right? And so Apollo 12, they

intentionally crashed the booster of uh

the lunar vehicle onto the the moon.

They put seismometers there and they

said that it rang like a bell. These

this is all fact. You can look all this

up. It's super weird. It is really

weird. You know, I know you did an

episode about that with Randall Carlson.

Love Randle Carlson. Yeah, he's got some

wild [ __ ] theories, too. But that the

the idea that the moon was somehow

another place there to stabilize our

atmosphere is so crazy. It is crazy. And

then this is you obviously have to sort

of think in probabilities all the way

down. Lowest probability craziest thing

is Engo Swan who is another remote

viewer in the Stargate program. He wrote

a book called Penetration where he's

basically like abducted by this guy in a

suit like this kind of Men in Black

style guy named Axel Rod and he is told

to remote view the moon and he remote

views an alien base on the moon and he

says that there and he gets it the whole

thing goes cra I mean the book is

insane. It's like he then ends up in a

supermarket and he says that he senses

that this woman that you know the

produce aisle is like an alien or

something. Uh but a lot of people from

that Stargate program remote viewed you

know structures on the dark side of the

moon and that sort of thing. So well but

AJ from the Y files was on and he was he

was the one that was telling us that

there's photos right of the dark side of

the moon that someone had seen photos

and was assuming that these would be

released shortly that there was

structures they w this is going to be

the biggest news ever and then it was

never released.

Are you talking about maybe uh Carl

Wolf? Is that what it was? Who was taken

to This is all his claims and he died in

a freakish bike accident a little after

saying this, but he said that there was

like in in like Langley, you know,

Virginia where a lot of spooky stuff

goes on. He was taken to some like it

was like inside a mountain complex which

we definitely Yeah. Carl Wolf. Yeah,

that guy bikes.

Apparently not enough. That guy could

die any time. Oh man, on a scooter. So,

photographs of the 1966 lunar orbiter

mission that revealed large base of the

moon. Can we hear what he's saying?

Just hear a little bit of it.

Scan one section of the moon, then

another, and another, and then they

would get a larger image. So, this

mosaic then would be put in that contact

printer, and that was then a print that

was issued to whomever, the press, the

scientist, whatever, wherever that was

intended to go. So, he was showing me

how all this worked and we walked over

to one side of the lab and he said, "By

the way, we've discovered a base on the

back side of the moon." And I said, I

said,

"Who's? What do you mean who's?" He

said, "Yes, there's we've discovered a

base on the back side of the moon." And

at that point, I become became

frightened and I was a little terrified

thinking to myself that if anybody walks

in the room now, I know we're we're in

jeopardy. were in trouble because he

shouldn't be giving me this information.

I was fascinated by it, but I also knew

that he was overstepping a boundary that

he shouldn't be stepping over. And then

he pulled out one of these mosaics and

showed showed this base which had

geometric shapes. There were towers.

There were uh spherical uh buildings. Uh

there were very tall uh towers and

things that looked somewhat like radar

dishes, but they were large structures.

So I um I didn't say anymore to him

because I was concerned again that

somebody was going to come in at any

moment would catch us having this

conversation and we would be in in in

real trouble. I realized that he was

telling me this information because he

didn't have anybody else to talk to. Now

probably in that laboratory he was

probably the one of the few uh enlisted

people and he was a workerbe and he had

a high level security clearance

obviously but he couldn't share that

information with anybody else and in

those days we didn't when you had your

security clearance you took it

seriously. It isn't like today where

people don't take these things

seriously. We had a different set of

morals and ethics and values. That's the

way we were raised and we we stayed

bound by those agreements.

So it was rare that someone would would

do something like this. But this fellow

and I were the same rank. I think he he

was very distressed. Uh he he had the

same power and demeanor as the

scientists outside the room. They were

just as concerned as he was. And he

needed to he needed to discuss it with

somebody. So that was the end of it

right there. I didn't take it any

further than that. I you know I I just

filed it away. But the interesting

thing, every day that I went home, I

would think to myself, I can't wait to

hear about this on the news, you know,

and you know, so I'd turn on the TV and

I'd look at the news to see if they're

going to announce we've discovered a

base on the back side of the moon, being

really naive, you know, and of course

here it is 30ome years later and we

still haven't heard about it.

Whoa. Whoa. Pretty crazy. Yeah. But then

there's the question of

disinformation, right? Like you could

conceivably give people a bunch of

nonsense and tell them about it knowing

that some of it is going to leak and

it's going to make and it won't be

verified and it's going to make this

whole story seem even more ridiculous

and make people less less likely or

reluctant to study it. Totally. And in

his case, he says that he was in this,

you know, mountain base or whatever

where all of the world's nations were

working together as part of some like,

you know, collegial UN style space

program or whatever. So, that to me

might be a little, you know, beyond the

pale. And I'm glad you made that point

because that is ufology 101. And I've

heard you be incredibly exhausted and

frustrated at UFO disclosure. And I

think that is the reasonable response.

It is limited hangouts on limited

hangouts. It's just we're going to give

you a little bit, but we're also going

to sprinkle in some falsities and some

[ __ ] We're going to stigmatize it.

And it it kind of works because it like

it creates this initiation path for

recruiting if there are any of these

programs. It widens the surface area. It

both conditions the populace but also

stigmatizes the thing and makes it seem

like kind of a joke. And so I think if

you are not viewing modern disclosure

through that kind of hermeneutic lens of

like interpretation and you were just

taking it accepting it you know embibing

it wholeheartedly like primaaccia I

think you are in trouble. Yeah. But

that's what's so interesting and fun and

also frustrating about the subject.

Yeah. I mean that's like the majority of

your videos is like I don't know. I

don't know what to think. I don't I

don't know who's full of [ __ ] I don't

know how I mean I was I was watching the

Towns and Brown one today um and you

were talking about John Lear and John

Lear's connection to Bob Lazar and the

possibility that Lear was spreading

disinformation. Yep. Yeah. So like Le

Yeah. That's a I've by the way since

making that video I've become more

positive on Lazar just in so far as I

think he was at S4 Area 51. And there's

going to be a great documentary coming

out by my buddy Luigi on this called

Project Gravitar. And I think there's

going to be a lot of corroborating

evidence that he was at least there and

a lot in his story checks. But I think

you have to view and I even say that in

this video that I think a lot of the

story could be true. You can't I think

view the Bob Lazar story. You can't just

take it at face value because John Leer

and he were friends. John Leer is this

babbling UFO nut. He's obsessed with

UFO. He's writing weird like disinfoy

style stuff with Bill Cooper. Behold the

pale horse guy, which is a wild book.

Which is a wild book. Wild. Yeah. And so

he's crazy. He talks about, doesn't he

talk about bases on the moon? Talks

about bases on the moon. Lear also

talked about a soul catcher that like

controlled our souls on the moon. Oh

boy. And so Lear was like flooding the

zone with all sorts of weird [ __ ] Lear

comes from an interesting family. His

father is Bill Leer, who's the autopilot

wizard. He created the first business,

you know, basically the first private

jet, the Lear Jet, uh, in the 50s and

60s and was an associate of a guy I hope

we talk about named Thomas Towns and

Brown. Yeah. And, um, and so I think,

you know, Lear was engaging in all sorts

of [ __ ] Was he a useful idiot or

was he a sophisticated agent provocator?

I'm totally open to him having been a

useful idiot. In fact, there is a video

of him saying I was told uh I was given

all the Bob Lazar files or whatever and

I was I was told about, you know, umhuh

uh to to actually like he said a guy

named Admiral Mlelen knew that I ran my

mouth. I I even have this video actually

on the dock that I sent you, Jamie. He

says knew that I ran my mouth. Uh so

that's why we we basically we got Bob a

job or whatever. We knew that part of

this stuff would leak and it was like

this limited hangout strategy on behalf

of this guy named Admiral Mlen or

whatever and he was this useful idiot to

sort of get get it out and I think there

to what for what purpose? recruiting you

give people high level. Yeah. Here

and

the MJ personnel the original 12 uh have

all passed away. So they put they get

different people uh into uh these

positions of MJ 2 3 four five six uh and

taken over. It's degraded. though it's

almost political now instead of like it

was when Truman originally formed the

MJ12. It turns out that MJ1, the head of

MJ12 is a guy named Admiral Mike Mlen.

He wanted to get some of the information

out because he he didn't re he didn't

want to uh he thought that some of this

information should be out in the public.

We don't need to keep all this secrecy.

So he decided trying to figure out a way

to get it to the public. So he knew that

uh I was a blabbermouth and I would tell

anything I knew. Uh they investigated

Bob Lazar and they knew that he was a

genius. Uh but that he had a background

such uh that they could instantly

discredit him. They removed all his

records from MIT from Caltech. So he

couldn't prove anything. He'd go back to

G. No, I don't see any records here.

Well, I was here. No, you weren't. And

uh he also uh up in Reno at one time he

he ran a cat house there. Um I forget

what the name of the honeysuckle ranch

it was. Uh so they chose him because not

only could he probably help them because

he was so smart. And his mur he's the

one that named uh an unpenium 115. He's

the one that told them what that was and

they didn't know uh when when he went

there they didn't know what it was. He

was the one that told him that's element

115 and then told him why and how he'd

figured it out. But uh they decided to

pick on Bob

uh to get go up there the work at ES for

because he they knew that Bob would tell

me instantly and then I would blab the

whole thing. And that was their motive

separi was to get the information out

and gauge what it did to the public, how

they accepted it, and then pull back and

say, "Oh, no. It was all a mistake. Bob

Lazar is a uh a fraud. He never worked

here. He doesn't have any credentials

like that." And they could back away and

get out of it. So that was what Mike

McClung Mlen came up with. Isn't that

crazy? Weird. Weird. And to me, kind of

makes sense a little bit though. It

does. And that doesn't make Bob Lazar

still not the most interesting story in

the world. Like he's saying he's not

saying it didn't happen, right? He's

just saying that this happened as part

of this limited hangout strategy where

they knew that they could delete the

records at MIT. They knew that they

could stigmatize him because of the

brothel. They knew that there, you know,

he was this not traditionally trained

engineer who just happened to strap a

ramjet on the back of a Honda or

whatever and meet Edward Teller

serendipitously. They knew that they

could. They had plausible deniability on

all that stuff. There's a great line in

the Oppenheimer movie where Leslie

Groves, played by Matt Damon, says, "I

didn't hire Oppenheimer uh uh in spite

of his communist sympathies. I hired him

because of them." So, you have a top

secret program. You want comprom.

And so, I think, you know, that should

be taken at face value in my opinion.

And the reason that the story itself

can't be taken at face value and needs

to be seen through that lens is Lear and

and Bob Lazar were friends before Bob

Lazar got a job at Area at Area 51 S4.

And so if you have a top secret program,

you're going to do a basic background

check and and and Lear is going to come

up as a guy with a UFO blog, right? And

then the CIA is all over the UFO

program, right? and he was flying CIA

cargo jets and and and he says that he

disaffiliated in ' 83. That's [ __ ]

George Knap and and Jeremy Corbell have

talked about how that's how that's BS

and actually disaffiliated much later

into the mid 80s or whatever. Why would

you continue to pay a guy who is leaking

your crown jewel secrets? Uh and then

the guards at Area 51 knew John Leon

Leer and Jim Goodall, his buddy who's a

photographer had been camping out at

Area 51 for the better part of a decade.

like they the security guards there knew

him. Jeremy Corbel is has talked about

in interviews like I would go with John

Lear and and he would show me around or

whatever and they would like let him

through and before leaking the Bob Lazar

story to George Knap he leaked a story

about the F-17 which is the first

stealth craft in the US and so I think

that helped establish sort of you know

credibility or legitimacy. Was he a

useful idiot or agent provocator? I

don't know. There's a photo of John Leer

with G. Gordon Litty, who's like as deep

and spooky as it gets. I met him. No

way. He was on Fear Factor. No way. G.

Gordon Litty was on Fear Factor. Are you

serious? You're not messing with me. No.

No. G. Gordon Litty was on Fear Factor.

Yeah. What? Yeah. He probably would have

won, but there was a driving thing at

the end and he couldn't drive well

without glasses and you weren't allowed

to wear glasses. Yeah. Look at that. G.

Gordon Litty and John Le. That is the

most gonzo thing I've ever You Gordon

Litty was How does he What did you You

have like a quota of like It was

celebrity factor. Celebrity fear factor.

Yeah. Yeah. That's wild, man. He's a

fascinating guy. Like he was intense.

Meeting him. I was like, "Okay, what was

he like?" [ __ ] intense. There was one

of the things where you had to be hung

by your ankles and like there he is. Oh

my god. G. Gordon Litty on Fear Factor.

Yeah, he looks nuts. Oh yeah, he was

nuts and he was very old at the time.

But I think that's what [ __ ] him up.

But in the final stunt, he uh couldn't

see well without his glasses. And so

this is the thing. They had to like d I

forget what they had to do. They had to

Oh, they they were dunked into the water

over and over again and then they had to

like take flags off of them or something

like that. Oh my god. Yeah. Wild. Wild.

Did you sneak any questions in No, I

didn't. You know, I didn't have much

time to talk to him, unfortunately.

He's But, uh, you could just tell

talking to him. Like, he was one intense

[ __ ] even as an old man. Did

you get sociopathic vibes? Oh, yeah. Oh,

yeah. Just like he'll do whatever the

[ __ ] it takes to get it get the job

done. Pulled off Watergate. Yeah. Look

at him there. Oh my god.

Crazy. Crazy. Yeah. That is

unbelievable. What an art. What an

amazing that just I mean you've had a

lot of crazy experiences in life. That's

that's crazy. That's a weird one. That

was a weird one cuz everybody was you

know they weren't the people that were

on the show weren't nearly as fascinated

as I was. I was like do you know how

[ __ ] wild that dude is. Yeah. I mean

that guy is deep. He's deep in there.

Deep. Very deep.

Oh my

god. Unbelievable.

Yeah. Wild. It's a Gonzo moment. Yeah,

for sure. Like very strange. Like why

would you do this? It was It was I don't

even understand why he did it. It's

proof we live in a simulation. Yeah,

maybe. It was very strange. Like what

would be his objective? Like I feel

people like that love [ __ ] around.

They love getting a rise out of people

and they love, you know, if he is a

sociopath, he loves, you know, going

back to the scene of the crime and just

as much attention as he can get. I don't

I can't psychoanalyze G. Gordon famously

put cigarettes out on himself and put

hold his hand under flames. I didn't

know that. Just to show that he could

control his response to pain.

Say goodbye. And he felt like that when

you're around him, you know, like like

so that thing that they had to do where

they got dunked and they, you know,

they're hanging by their ankles and

dunked into water. So it disorients you

while you're trying to do this task. He

did it better than anybody. Wow. And

they just couldn't 150 years old or

whatever the [ __ ] he was. Yeah. I felt

like we're going to kill him. He's like

really old to be doing this intense

physical thing to him. Yeah. But at the

end he just couldn't see at night. You

know his like when you get old your

nighttime vision is real bad. Poor

Gordon Litty. Yeah. But so the How did

Lazard know what element 115 was?

I don't know. you know so element

115 elements are just differentiated by

the number of protons so it is easy to

predict there will be an element 115

before element 115 gets discovered if

they have I don't I think they don't

have a stable version of Muscovium which

is element 115 and so if they can find

some stable version I think he'll be

super vindicated based on that well you

know they think he has a stable version

I would know that they think that was

part of during Jeremy Corbell's

documentary that he was doing on Lazar.

He was raided by the FBI. They raided

his lab and he thinks that's what they

were looking for. That is wild. Yeah. I

I think there is so much real about the

Lazar story. I think he was at S4. I

think he met Edward Teller. I think he

was at Los Alamos. I think he was at

MIT. I know he he's there's some stuff

he told you offline. MIT's engaged in a

lot of spooky stuff where you can't talk

about what you were doing. There's a lot

of federally funded weird stuff going

on. If you want to teach your people how

to do something that's kind of [ __ ]

up, what you would send them to MIT

100%. EG&G came from Doc Edertton who

was, you know, MIT faculty and that's

who where he ended up working after

meeting Edward Teller was EGNG. Um, so I

I believe there's a lot in that story

that's super true. I'm just that lens.

You need to apply that lens, the limited

hangout lens. Well, it's also like what

is he dealing with really? Like what is

the craft? Is that thing ours? Is do did

we have something in 1988 that was that

sophisticated or is that really

backineered? That's the what is the is

it a mind [ __ ] That's a trillion dollar

question. Is this tech protect? This is

at a time when stealth craft had just

came on the scene and you had when did

stealth technology first get

implemented? It was the F-17 was the

first stealth craft. That was the early

'8s and you had actually this guy named

Ptor Ufimsev who is this uh what a name

yeah very a great name uh uh uh early

20th century Russian mathematician that

Ben Rich and some of his engineers at

Lockheed Skunkworks had resuscitate

there's this kind of uh um fight between

not fight but disagreement between Ben

Rich who is the incoming skunk works

director skunkworks is the most advanced

R&D division of Loheed Martin and uh

Kelly Johnson the legendary guy who

started skunk works and so uh Ben Rich

was very pro- stealth. He thought that

this was this really important modality

and he and a couple of his engineers

resuscitated this obscure Russian

mathematician to reduce radar

crosssections on planes and that's where

the F-17 came and you know the B2 was

sort of the response to that and it sort

of took off in the 80s and he was

extremely

uh scared about about tech protection at

the time. I mean, he was hypervigilant

and he would actively complain about it

and he even called UFOs unfunded

opportunities at the time. Pretty crazy,

[Laughter]

right? So, that's the backdrop. And

there's also in 1986, there's a budget

line item in the congressional budget

for $2 billion for the Aurora. And um uh

this is this super stealthy craft that's

post

F-17. And uh that's only rumored. Like

today, nobody will admit that the aurora

might have been real. And the uh the

aerial surveys at the time were picking

up sonic booms that weren't being

created by the SR71 or the space

shuttle. And so there was something

being flown around at that time that

was, you know, causing these sonic booms

that was unaccounted for. Wow. And Bob

Lazar, there's even a clip of him

saying, "I saw the aurora. It was like,

you know, it was it was around at the

time and it sort of just took off or

whatever." which is, I think, a point in

the direction that Lazar himself is very

earnest and probably did experience some

very weird stuff because why are you

exposing some probably classified tech?

I I think there's a lot of reasons to

believe that the Aurora was real. There

was a an oil rig engineer in the North

Sea uh or sorry, maybe it might have

been the Black Sea that sketched it out

and Bill Sweetman, this um uh James

Defense Weekly uh aviation journalist,

you know, picked that story up there.

What did he describe it as? uh this this

uh kind of it was a triangle similar to

the B2 but I think more more narrow and

it just flew incredibly fast like like

uh uh faster than you know the F-17 and

and um yeah I don't know it was it was

super advanced. Can you envision I mean

would it be actually possible in 1988

to could you imagine that the United

States would possess some sort of actual

technology that's not back engineered

that's not not from another world that

is what Lazar described. It's funny you

should ask that. Yes I do. Yes. Really?

Yes. And that's not to say I don't want

to again pour cold water on the like UFO

crash retrieval stuff because I think

there's a lot of interesting evidence

there. But is there a tech tree that

involves anti-gravity? Absolutely. In

the US and I can trace it all the way

back to this guy named Thomas Towns and

Brown. So if we were to be talking in

front of any academic physicist right

now, they would laugh at us. They'd be

like, "You're crazy." If we were to talk

amongst any aerospace gray beard who is

at a certain level, I think they'd give

you a little wink and a smile and they'd

say, "Okay, like maybe there's something

there." And so, uh, the nominal history

is that we have never been able we have

we don't have exotic propulsion

principles. Like everything is, you

know, chemical combustion essentially.

You had Elon Musk on and he says, you

know, um, it's all Newton's three laws.

You can't get anything better. And I

remember you asked him, you're like,

"Well, maybe if you what if you could

get something better." And he's like,

"It's impossible."

Um, we have not unified the field in

physics. So, you have the weak force,

the strong force, um, and and

electromagnetism. And all of those have

been reconciled. Gravity is out here

hanging out by itself on an island. So,

you have the standard model, quantum

field theory, and you have Einstein's

theory of gravity. And the two are not

reconcilable. It is my belief that if

you were to reconcile them, you could

create exotic propulsion, which I think,

you know, any even, you know, reasonable

theoretical physicist who's credentialed

would say if you could reconcile them,

that's that's possible. I think that

Thomas Townsen Brown did this

experimentally, not theoretically. I

don't think he was a very strong

theoretical physicist, but I think he

did this experimentally. And so there's

this whole hidden history involving

anti-gravity. And I get into this in my

show with how put off and Eric Weinstein

where there's actually this great 1971

Australian Joint Intelligence

Organization document that is verified.

It's real. David Grush actually cites it

a lot and it talks about uh uh basically

it's this guy Harry Turner who's the

head of the nuclear division at in

Australia. Um you know very legit guy.

He's like their Oenheimer if you will.

and uh and um they they were actually

they had a womera test range um in in

southern Australia. So there were some

actually British Empire like like

nuclear stuff going on. It was mostly

like I think um uh missile testing but

there reasons to believe that maybe he

started to get interested in UFOs to

begin with. And so he looked into US

efforts into you know UFO research but

also specifically anti-gravity.

And he talks about how after a little

bit of investigation,

uh, uh, US efforts into anti-gravity are

far deeper than meet the eye. And Blue

Book, this front-facing PR campaign

that's part of the Air Force is total

BS. And it's meant to, you know,

stigmatize UFOs and and throw people off

the trail. And it's actually, you know,

this now declassified document around

the Robert the Robertson memo, which is

around this Robertson panel that kind of

created the constitution for for a blue

book all shows that this was the case

with blue book. He says actually there

were secret anti-gravity programs going

on at the time and they involved and he

lists names Oenheimer, Freeman Dyson,

John Wheeler and Edward Teller. He lists

all these names the head head of the you

knowh nuclear program in Australia. Uh,

and so then you have to ask the

question, okay, so you have this like

official government document saying this

stuff like does this line up with any

artifacts at the time. Well, actually in

1956 there's an article um in Young

Men's magazine, this kind of aviation

hobbyist journal uh uh journal by a guy

named Michael Gladic, and he is quoting

all of the industry experts. You know,

he's Bill Leer is quoted who we talked

about. Um, uh, uh, uh, who else is

quoted? George Trimble, who's a VP at

Martin Corporation, their RAAS, their

anti-gravity research program. He says,

uh uh anti-gravity research is, you

know, we're gonna we're uh we're going

to figure this out in in just amount in

just the same amount of time that it

took to figure out the atom bomb. Like

it's it's right around the bend sort of

thing. You had uh um the patron of of uh

Bell aircraft. They had just broken the

sound barrier with the with the X1 1947.

So there you go. Michael Glad the G

engines are coming. Yeah.

Whoa. Whoa. By far the most potent

source of energy is gravity. Using it as

power. Future aircraft will attain the

speed of light. Holy [ __ ]

And and uh Belle says like, you know,

we're experimenting with nuclear fuels

to cancel out gravity. Richard Arnowit

and Stanley Desert. Look at they have a

diagram of how it would work. It's wild.

Protective boundary layer. Yep. Cabin.

electronic rockets, gravity generator.

They talk about uh gravity particles.

Stanley Deser and Richard Arnowit at

Princeton are studying this. So what do

you think was going on? I think they

were deeply investigating anti-gra I

mean there there you think they had a

working model? I think they had an

effect called the Biffield Brown effect

that showed that you could couple

electromagnetism and gravity at a base

level and you could do it in a vacuum

which rules out ionized air as the

possible reason for thrust. So I I'll

back up and I'll just give you what the

experiment is. So it's you take a

capacitor, right? And so a capacitor is

a positive electrode and a negative

electrode. It's an asymmetric capacitor.

The negative electrode is bigger than

the positive capacitor and the two are

uh uh in between the two is an insulator

called the high K dialectric. So it's a

material that stores a lot of uh

electromagnetic charge. You pump the

entire thing with high voltage and low

current electricity and Brown used to do

it with uh DC direct current pulses. and

you see thrust going from uh the

negative to the positive. And if you do

that in air, then you can always say

that it's ionized air because ions are

being produced and then you get this

equal and opposite reaction with the

wind and then you get this thrust,

right? So that's not breaking physics.

If you do this in a um depressurized

vacuum chamber uh where there basically

is no air to to to to you know create

this kind of equal and opposite force

for the thrust then you are breaking

physics as we know it. There are other

things that break physics as we know it.

you had Sunny White on. He talked about

like the the Casemir effect, you know,

which is a a real effect that involves

uh

uh uh not charged but conductive plates

that are very close to each other that

seem to attract. Um there's the bone the

airoff bomb effect which might be

explained by the electromagnetic for

potential. There are other effects in

physics where you don't you can't quite

explain it in the current model but they

are harbingers if you will of the next

paradigm. I believe that when you find

an anomaly, it is pointing towards the

next scientific paradigm. Black body

radiation is a great example was

discovered in the 1870s by a guy named

Gustaf Kirchov. We could not explain it

until the quantum revolution with Max

Plank where he, you know, actually

discovered quanta. Um, uh, the orbit of

Mercury is another good example where we

didn't understand, you know, we couldn't

calculate, uh, uh, Mercury's orbit until

we had spacetime curvature in Einstein.

So Newton didn't quite explain it. So my

belief is the Bfield Brown effect is an

anomaly that seemed to ostensibly

visually unify the field or it's

pointing towards something else

gravitational shielding or it's pointing

towards how putoff stuff around you know

quantum vacuum fluctuations. I don't

know. I don't have a great uh uh the

theory for how it works. I don't think

Brown had an amazing theory for how it

works. But it's an effect that I think

creates this tech tree of exotic

electromagnetic propulsion that leads us

to today. It's an effect that's not

supposed to happen. And this what is

this Jamie?

Is that it? The

Bible thruster in a vacuum. Yeah, that

that's a that's a lateral propeller

version of it. And you don't have to

listen to me, by the way. The lead

electrostatics guy at NASA is a guy

named Charles Beller. He's been doing

this for 20 years and he's had access

he's at at um Kennedy Space Center. He

is the lead they use electrostatics to

like clean dust off the you know lunar

lander or whatever because those

particles are actually charged and um

super he's the most senior guy in

electrostatics and he says this is not a

conventional electrostatic force and he

attributes his work to Towns and Brown.

I could show you in an interview he he

literally says Towns and Brown was like

the first guy to discover this. He he

he's updated it a bit. He says that um

it's not just sheer voltage. You don't

need to use mega voltage and actually

electric field strength is the most

important thing. So we use kilovolts and

he amps up the electric field strength

in order to get more thrust. But he has

a whole company around this. It's called

Exodus Space. So like you don't have to

listen another very you know

credentialed person if we're if we're on

that uh a guy named Carl Nell who I have

reason to believe that some of Brown's

work made it into the B2 stealth bomber.

I don't think it's the anti-gravity

part. It's a part called

electro-hydrodnamics that made it into

the B2 stealth bomber. But the point is

I interviewed a guy who was the deputy

CTO of Northrup Grumman. And he also was

the army representative of the UAP task

force along with David Gush where they

were investigating UFOs. And he says I I

was in a room, you know, filled with

venture capitalists and entrepreneurs. I

was like, Carl, these people want

actionable stuff. like can you actually

make progress with any of this UFO stuff

or is it all like kind of metaphysical,

you know, and like kind of um uh not

even wrong as Fineman would say? And he

goes, "Well, if you want, you know, some

actionable stuff, go watch Jesse's video

on Thomas Towns and Brown." And so,

like, I've gotten this time and time

again where I've had all these private

experiences about, you know, with Brown

where I'm like, is anybody seeing this?

Like, this is crazy. And it's, you know,

I don't know. It's weird. So, let's take

this back to when was Brown conducting

these experiments experiments initially.

Yeah. What year was this? The early 20s.

So, like 1923 24 range. Whoa. He was a

child prodigy. So, they're newspaper

climate. He was from Zanesville, Ohio.

He was born in 1905. In 1915,

uh he was, you know, caught in the

garden or whatever using charged rods to

get worms to ascend to the top of the

soil. Then at age 12, he the World War

government under Woodro Wilson, it was

probably the local government, told him

to take down a wireless transmitter that

he had created, an antenna that he had

created, like this walkietalkie system

that he had developed at the time. And

there there's newspaper clippings

talking about this at the time that like

totally corroborate this. He then goes

to Caltech. He studies under a guy named

Robert Milikin who's actually a really

wellrespected physicist who um was

helped developed Einstein's

photoelectric effect or actually you

know demonstrated experimentally.

Milikin doesn't really give him the time

of day on on the biffield brown effect

and the way he discovered the effect is

actually he was using uh coolage X-ray

tubes. So these were really early X-ray

tubes and they have every X-ray tube has

or every Coolage tube has

um a cathode and an anode. So a negative

and a positive electrode. And he would

pump it full of um you know high voltage

electricity and the wire would jump and

then he would he would actually he would

put in a fixed chassis and it would keep

jumping and then he would suspend it

from you know the ceiling and it would

keep jumping and he was like what's

going on? Like this isn't supposed to

happen. And there are ways to again

explain that away via traditional

electrostatics. So he later got the idea

to do this in a vacuum chamber and

really prove it. But after Caltech he

then goes to Dennis University where he

studies under a guy named Paul Alfred

Biffield. And Dennis University for the

longest time has denied that

relationship and now they're admitting

it which is I find really funny. Then

the archivist there is now admitting it.

there is an affidavit uh from the Navy

saying where Paul Alfred Bifeld signs a

letter saying I witnessed this effect.

It's an anomalous effect. From there he

goes on and it's witnessed by a guy

named Victor Bertrandius who's at the

right Patterson right airfield at the

time flight test division. He's working

with Colonel Albert Boyd um on all the

you know crazy flight tests in 1952. He

says, "Believe it or not, I saw a model

of a flying saucer and I was frightened

and I'm frightened for it getting out

because," and I'm paraphrasing a little

bit because I believe it's in the stage

of early atomic development and that's

1952. Um, he then shows a fan

precipitator experiment which really

shows the electro hydrodnamic effect

which is similar but not the same as the

the electromagnetism gravity thing to

Edward Teller, the father of the Hbomb.

And Edward Teller himself says, "I don't

know how this works." And then his wife

turns to Towns and Brown's daughter, and

I have this, by the way, on a phone call

where with Towns and Brown's daughter

who's saying this all happened. Uh turns

to to um to her and she says, "I've

never heard him say that because he's

such a genius. I mean, he was Hungarian,

brilliant, you know, father of the

Hbomb." And um so you have all these

interesting eyewitnesses. Ed um uh Brown

was an associate of Bill Leer. You have

video of Bill Leer and Towns and Brown

together in a lab in the Baineson lab in

North Carolina together. In fact,

there's a Chapel Hill conference in 1957

which is basically creates quantum

gravity of which the offshoot is string

theory and actually Eric Weinstein

talked about it on your show. It's at

the Institute of Field Physics in North

Carolina, Chapel Hill. They are funding

Brown's work in the back room and there

is video of Brown working on his

experiments working under Agnu Bainson.

And in that 1971 Australian intelligence

memo, you have all these outposts of

anti-gravity research. University of

North Carolina is one of those outposts.

It's crazy. And says the CIA's Office of

Scientific Intelligence is coordinating

all this stuff. the president of

University of North Carolina in the 50s

around this time is a guy named Gordon

Gray who's a super spooky guy who uh he

he he he um revoked Oppenheimer's Q

clearance and uh he's also implicated in

these sort of MJ12 documents which I

don't necessarily want to mush in with

Brown. It has to be viewed through that

sort of passage material like limited

hangout lens but Gordon Gray is this

very interesting character. The point is

that the people who were sending physics

down the wrong path with the Chapel Hill

conference and this is a conference in

1957 that convened the top theoretical

physicists in the world. Freeman Dyson,

Peter Bergman, uh Fineman was there,

John Wheeler was there, Bryce Dit, all

these people at the same time they were

funding in the back room this kind of

zany inventor Towns and Brown who is

performing these experiments in vacuum

chambers. And there's video of him

popping champagne where it's like why

are you popping champagne? Probably

because you got a successful experiment.

That was the second time he had he had

um tested this in a vacuum. So again

it's it's reduc it's eliminating this

sort of ionized wind effect before that

a year before that um in Paris at the

Montgier facilities he performed this in

a vacuum and this guy named Jacqu

Cornion was this he died in 2009 but

Towns and Brown's biographer has him on

record in a in a phone call that is

recorded saying the tests were very

tricky but in the end we got it to work

and he's on his deathbed and he's saying

all this and you have an 120 page

125page report for the Montgalier

project. And when Brown comes back to

the to America, he's picked up,

according to his daughter, Linda, by a

guy named Robert Sarbacher, who runs

rampant. I mean, there's so many

Sarbacher stories when it comes to UFOs.

He says that UFOs are classified at two

points higher than the Hbomb. He's

talking to this guy Wilbert Smith, who's

this um magnetics expert in in in Canada

about their experimentations via, you

know, with UFOs. And so he's the guy

that picks up and he's head of

Washington National Labs and running

research and development for Vanavar

Bush at the time. And he's the guy who

picks up Brown where it's like, okay, we

we've got to take take this seriously

because you got it to work in a vacuum.

The idea that they've kept all this

secret for all these years seems

impossible

to me. Yeah, sure. I mean, I I'm sure

it's not, but you know what I mean? from

my limited understanding of how things

work and secretive government projects

that they could have a gravity

propulsion system in place for decades.

Yeah, it seems crazy to me, but he had

something Brown had something called his

wounded prairie chicken routine, which

is basically showing people something

called it was basically the

electrohydrodnamic effect, which is not

the electrogravitic effect. So these are

two very different things. One is

coupling again electromagnetism and

gravity somehow or creating some gravity

shielding or whatever. You can do this

in a vacuum. And then the other thing is

what you could see on YouTube videos

which is associated with towns and brown

where you have um basically these balsa

wood structures. You have tin foil at

the bottom and you have a copper wire at

the top. The copper wire is the positive

electrode. The tin foil is the negative

electrode. The copper wire is producing

ions which is creating thrust because

those neutral ions are bombarding the

wind which is creating thrust in in a

certain direction. So that is an

experiment that is 95% similar to the

electrogravidic thing. It it wears the

mantle of being electrogravitic but it's

actually using this other principle that

you can just describe using normal

physics and you know Newton's laws.

Well, what about material science? Like

what about the actual structure itself?

You know, because th this is where it

gets really weird, right? The these nano

layers of whatever the material is

that's being used. What what was the was

it bismouth? Bismouth. So, this this is

what's crazy. So, magnesium bismouth

shows up a lot. It shows up in Thomas

Towns and Brown's Winterhaven proposal

in 1954 where he's describing these

electrogravitic effects because it's a

high K dialectric. It stores a lot of

electromagnetic charge, but it also

shows up. There's actually an interview

with Lewis Whitten, who's the father of

Ed Whitten, who's this master string

theorist that Eric Wein says is the

Michael Jordan of physics, you know, on

your show. Yeah. And um he Lewis Whitten

says there was a guy named Townzen who

discovered an isotope of of of bismouth

that would repel instead of attracting.

Who's named Townsen at that time? It's

clear he's talking about Towns and

Brown. If you actually look at Gary

Nolan's samples that he stud Gary Nolan

is, you know, a PhD at Stanford's a

tenure professor and um uh he he is, you

know, spun out multiple nine figure

companies in biotechnology. Really smart

guy. He runs the Soul Foundation. and

they're studying sort of, you know,

non-human intelligence. He has these

samples, various samples of different

crash materials that he's gotten from

Jacques Valle, who've you've had on as

the French godfather of ufology, who,

you know, his address is posted online.

If you see a crash, you send it to

Jacques. Jacques, you know, uh, sends a

lot of his materials to Gary. One of the

materials is magnesium bismouth. And

this was apparently, I believe this was

the material that they found around the

Roswell crash, I think.

And magnesium bismouth is a high K

dialectric and it's it's over and over

again it's mentioned by Thomas Towns and

Brown. So you have this this weird thing

around the material that creates more

thrust via these anti-gravity

experiments is also showing up in UFO

lore. Do do you explore the possibility

the Roswell crash was not of from

another world? That's where it gets

weird, man, because that was early. That

was July of 1947, right? Like so the

bismouth thing like when you're talking

about the way this stuff is layered

that's where it gets really weird right

that's where it's we it's it's layered

thinner than a you know it's like micron

layered like thinner than human hair is

I think the how put off quote on this

and I don't know the provenence on that

and I don't know you know per games

being played in this space I don't know

if that actually came from the Roswell

crash it was like if it didn't come from

the Roswell crash it like let's imagine

Is it possible to make that stuff today

and with those layers? Uh how put off

would say no and it's probably beyond my

material science knowledge but

yeah I don't know people who are very

smart on this subject like Hal and Gary

who I speak to you know at a decent

frequency say no. Okay. So if they say

no maybe they're wrong. Maybe there is a

lab somewhere that can recreate it. But

could they recreate it at scale? Like

could they 3D print that to something

that you could actually get people

inside and fly around? And then could

that have been done in

1947? That's where it gets super [ __ ]

weird. It gets super weird because you

you you know there's some leaps, right?

Okay, we had the the Hbomb, you know, we

had we had atomic energy. We we had a

lot of stuff back then. They split the

atom. There was some really incredible

advances. I don't believe we had

anti-gravity that I like if I track

Brown's stuff at the time, which I

think, you know, he was kind of the tip

of the spear on this stuff. He was using

these capacitor models and trying to get

that experimentally proven and and

sometimes being thwarted via like, you

know, mainstream academic circles at

that time. Like the the the Chapel Hill

conference was much later and that's

where he's like kind of officially

proving this stuff in the US government

context in 1957. So I do not believe

that the Roswell crash is easily

explained by an anti- early antigra.

Kelly Goddard who is a father of

American rocketry was doing rocket

testing at around Roswell at the time

like and so that's like total chemical

combustion. You had V2s at the time

where you know that was top of the line.

Opens up the door to the possibility of

back engineering. Absolutely. Which is

where it gets really weird. So now it's

we're not dealing with hidden science.

We're not dealing with top secret

compartmentalized like, you know, need

to know. Everything's pushed away into

skunk works and wherever the [ __ ] it's

done. You're talking about something

that's not from here. Well, it's

interesting you say back engineering. In

1949, there is a contract that anybody

can look up. I put it on the doc, Jamie,

between Wright Patterson. It was right

airfield at the time and Battel Memorial

Institute. And you have

eyes light up and you got shout out

Columbus, Ohio. All roads lead to Ohio,

right? Yeah. And you have all these um

titanium alloys. And one of them is

called nitanol, which is a nickel

titanium alloy. So this is 49. This is

1949. And so if you have, you know, um,

Army intelligence officer, uh, you know,

uh, Jesse Marcel says that he picks up

the the crash material and he says that

it was like this memor shape metal,

memory metal thing that you would kind

of, you know, mess with it and it would

go back into its original form, right?

It was like this kind of like tinfoily

like thing. And so Nitnanol was found at

a Navy lab in the 60s. That was when it

was actually fully published. But you

have this contract between right p right

airfield and battel memorial institute

where you have nitanol in as one of the

metal metals that they're testing. Not

only that 49 in 2012 they foy they used

the freedom of information act to figure

out that a guy named Elroy J center ej

center was one of the co-authors of that

paper. Elroy John center died I think in

1991. Before that, he had told two MUN

UFO researchers, Nick Nickerson and

Irene Scott, and they presented this at

MUON in Ohio in 1992. They said this guy

was this metallurgist. He worked at

Patel. Again, he's been foyed as part of

this paper. And he says, "I uh uh uh

worked on alien material and that there

were weird hieroglyphics on it and that

I had to I had to like, you know, I was

I was I was a c he was a chemist and so

he had to look at like um metal

impurities, but he was also uh uh meant

to decipher the the you know,

hieroglyphics on it or whatever." And so

I don't know, was Nitnol maybe just

inspired by the stuff that Marcel

recovered because obviously the rumors

are that the Roswell crash wreckage

ended up at right airfield. Um or was

it, you know, this one thing and EJ

Center is at the center of it, no pun

intended, where he's foyed in 2012 and

he says he has these UF he's he's

looking at UFO material and he's on

record working at Patel. You can look

that up. Well, not only is there record

that the Roswell crash was brought to

right, but that it was brought in two

separate jets in case it crashed and

that Truman met them there. Yep. I don't

I don't know if that's true. I need to

know that. I want to see a photo of the

[ __ ] hieroglyphs. Could you imagine

the glimpse at alien writing? Do you

think that would be amazing? Do you

think you have a better chance now than

ever at being cuz you interviewed Trump?

Would Trump let you be the disclosure

guy? And I could be the water boy on the

side making sure that the dude if that's

possible. I don't think they tell Trump

[ __ ] I think they they would withhold

that from him. Why would you tell that

guy? Yeah. I mean, that guy's a

substitute teacher as far as the

government's concerned. I mean, he's

doing a lot of wild stuff in terms of

like, you know, withholding funding for

Harvard and all these different things

and the border stuff and the ICE stuff.

There's a lot of stuff that I think are

is allowed to go on, but I think if you

get to the highest levels of

technological

sophistication, black budget stuff that

has been kept under wraps for [ __ ]

decades, you think they're going to tell

the guy who is the host of The

Apprentice? I don't think they tell him

cuz they think he's only in there for

four years. Probably not with two

caveats. One is his son Don Jr.

interviewed him and said, "What do you

think happened at Roswell?" And he said,

"Well, I think there's something very

interesting that might have happened."

Yeah. That's all he ever says. And he

say on your show, too. He doesn't spill

the beans at all. But I mean, maybe he

doesn't spill the beans because he

doesn't know where the beans are, right?

Maybe he's looking for more of a smoking

gun. Like, he needs to know more. Well,

is that really his primary concern? He's

a 78-year-old man who doesn't do drugs.

Like is, you know, he's had no

psychedelic experiences. Maybe he's not

even interested in this concept. I think

about that sometimes with people on the

hill that I speak to where I'm like, can

you just like I'm giving you all this

info. Can you think outside the box?

Figure it out. And they they don't

compute it. There's some there's a

person who like you're the archetype of

this who's like so fascinated by it and

then there is a person who goes but I

got to pay taxes dude. Yeah. They have

to get reelected. They're super busy.

Yeah. You you'd have to find someone

whose primary concern is that and that

bug has to bite you. You have to get

infected with UFO Lyme disease. If you

if you don't, you're not going to want

to release all this stuff. And I don't

think Trump is infected. I mean, I think

his even the way he describes these

things is very different than the way he

describes other things. Like he famously

was talking to Steve

Hilton and um it was one of the few

times in history that a a sitting

president has mentioned the

military-industrial complex wanting to

go to war. These guys want to go to war.

And he was saying that in that interview

and I remember thinking like, "Wow, that

is wild to hear him say to a guy on Fox

News that there's factions in this

incredibly dense complex of corporations

and defense contractors and there's

insane amounts of money involved and

these guys want to go to war." And he

was saying that in that interview and

I'm like, "This is I mean, this is what

Eisenhower said when he was leaving

office." Straight up. Yeah, straight up.

There's a there's a straight line

between then and now. And it feels like

it's hitting this apex where we're

involved in it. It's like you had the

Civil War, you know, 1861. Now we have

like a deep state war going on where

it's like Tulsi's going in there as an

outsider and this like light warrior and

she's being like redteamed and attacked

and she doesn't know who's on her side.

Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah. It's It's pretty

wild. It's pretty wild how nothing gets

done and you know and it's set up so

nothing gets done. But my point is that

Trump his response to that is an

informed response. Like there's there's

this military-industrial complex. These

people want to go to war. He doesn't

talk about this UAP thing that way. Like

I've seen some things crazy things. What

is that? What are you saying? Like what?

Be specific. You got handsome pilots.

They you know crew cuts like you. They

look like good guys, nice guys. good

Americans. Like what what what do you

know? Didn't he say something on your

podcast about men from Mars or

something? He goes the the people from

Mars or something. I don't He It's hard

with him because he speaks in this sing

songongy oversimplified way and he rants

and he rants and he Well, he's got a

strong rant muscle, right? Because he

does these stadium tours where he goes

to these enormous places and he

basically just works without a script.

So, it's like he's got a rant muscle.

There's a few people like Tim Dylan is

the best comedian who has a rant muscle.

So good. He just can rant. He just like

get a microphone in front of him in a

subject and he knows what to say. That

Trump has that muscle. He's developed

that muscle over all these years of

campaigning. And so it's really hard to

interview him because he just

essentially turns on that rampant muscle

when the mic's on and you got to like

interject like hold on. Okay, but what

are you saying? Like what do you know?

Like what do you know? Like will you

release this information? Like what what

if you found out that for sure we have

been visited and that we are in

possession of crashed UFOs that were not

made by China, they were not made by

Russia, they're not made by America,

they're from another civilization that

we don't understand. Would you tell us?

What What do you think he would say?

There's a lot of information. I don't

know if I could release it. I don't know

if they'd let me. you know, like I don't

know what holds it back. I want to know

if he's in an like Did you see Ages of

Disclosure? I didn't actually. You

should. It's really good. I I mean, I

don't know how you would see it right

now because it's not released yet and I

don't know what they're doing as far as

getting it released, but did you come

out believing more and more skeptical?

What was your

both with like with all of it? I think

some some is [ __ ] some of it is

misinformation, some of it is they're

releasing this slow trickle. Like if it

all is real, I think the strategy is to

slowly get us accustomed to the concept.

Just the idea that we're not alone and

just get it in there. Okay, first step,

first shot across the bow, 2017, New

York Times. New York Times says not of

this world. Oh my god. You know, you see

the the pictures of the gimbal and the

go fast and you're like, "Okay, all

right. Now we're talking." But that's

eight [ __ ] years ago, right? Nothing

real significant in eight years. And so

then you have sightings, you have these,

you know, different pilots. Commander

Fraver, he comes out, does podcasts, you

have Ryan Graves, he comes down, does

podcasts, you know, you have Lou

Alzando, everybody's talking, no one's

showing you [ __ ] Yeah. Fowler, who you

had on your show, Fowler. What did you

think of him? I thought that I He's

They've got to show data. They have on

their website like a container for the

data. They haven't populated it yet. I

want to see the data and I want to see a

scientist who they don't have to be a

debunker or a skeptic, but they have to

kind of go in being like, I don't know

what UFOs are. Like, I don't know

anything about this stuff. And like

vetting it. Mhm. Now, being as deep as I

am in UFO research where like I know

there's a nuclear connection, there's a

great book by a guy named Robert

Hastings called UFOs and nukes and it's

like 600 pages and it is 167 Qcle

cleared ICBM security personnel, radar

operators, employees at nuclear bases

where they're saying they see tic tacs,

orbs, saucers, all sorts of stuff flying

around our nuclear sites often disarming

the nukes. And so it's always tough to

answer that question where you're like,

"What do you think of Skywatcher?" I'm

like, "If I don't have that ontology

where like UFOs are showing up around

nukes constantly, which I I'm deep in

this and they they do they show up all

around the world. There's a a town in

Japan called Eno, which is next to the

Fukushima Prefecture. Fukushima is

famous for its civilian nuclear grid,

which was built in the 1970s that have a

it has a museum dedicated to UFOs in the

'90s that they built. Everybody there is

obsessed with UFOs. Vice did a

documentary in 2020 2022 because they

are obsessed with U with UFOs. They're

geomagnetic anomalies they found all

over this mountain. Uh Senori there and

there are UFO researchers there and like

everybody in that town believes in UFOs.

Bareroce, Argentina, 1995. Uh uh you

have a commercial they they're famous

for again civilian nuclear grid uh uh

commercial pilot at Aerolinus Argentinis

or whatever. Famous UFO sighting it it

shuts down the power at the airport and

the thing has to the the the plane can't

land and then it goes around in a circle

and there are people on the on the

flight who have been interviewed. It's

on a you know YouTube video. It's pretty

simple and easy to digest. Even Roswell

1947 the largest stockpile of American

nuclear weapons to date at that time

1947. So there are all these

declassified documents. In 1949 there

was an emergency meeting declassified

air force document document that is

verified between air force office of

special investigations army counter

intelligence army CIC FBI office of

naval intelligence. All these guys are

emergency meeting because they're

freaked out at how much UFOs are showing

up around nuclear sites. across the US.

In 1952, there's a Look magazine article

where Captain Edward J. Rupelt, who's

kind of marginalized pre Blue Book

really taking off with Jaylen Heinik,

who I think was basically a disinfo

agent, where he I do. Yeah. And he's

claimed to have like gotten better and

kind of be, you know, like like I he

admitted his part in the cover up, but

then I think he kept going on with some

some [ __ ] Yeah. Yeah. So there's so

so if you don't have that ontology,

there's even there's um Vasilei Alexev

is a a Russian general and in a German

magazine from 2000 he's interviewed and

he talks about how UFOs show up at the

forefront of human ingenuity and

advancement. And when we transport

certain material, the UFOs show up. In

chapter nine of the invisible college by

Jacqu Valet, he talks about the UFOs

being this sort of autonomous control

system and when we you know it's like a

node lights up like when we engage in

super advanced research or something. He

talks about ways to interfere with the

control system but that are very

dangerous. So if you don't have that

ontology like yeah me saying like these

dudes are out with their mobile

construction unit like in the desert

like you know getting stuff to show up

you're going to be like that's a [ __ ]

myar balloon. I'm sorry but because you

if you have that if you accept that data

set and don't just dismiss it kind of

firsthand. I do think they can get stuff

to show up. What they're getting to show

up I don't know. Can they get it to

land? I don't know. There, you know, I

think so. Can you explain how they're

getting the stuff to show up? What

signals are they putting out there that

represent something to these supposedly

something to these UAPs? Unfortunately,

they kind of blackbox it. And so I have

to assume it's either nuclear. They do

say that they have a dog whistle, which

is a certain frequency. There is a

frequency floating around online that

somebody claims to have docked. That

might be their thing, but I don't want

to say that that's definitely their

thing. So there are but the idea is they

call them they use something to send a

signal out there and then these crafts

respond. Is it a 100% of the time? They

say that the dog whistle works 100% of

the time and they have a combination of

mechanical means of attracting UFOs and

of this is really weird but humans

trying to call in the UFOs. I've heard

that before. Right. Yeah. C5 is sort of

post that on our show I don't think but

is that what you're talking about? I

don't want to make it. That might be.

Yeah. 2.5K. Yeah. What do you not want

to make? I don't know. Do you want me to

show this or not? I don't know if he's

saying it's bad. I don't want to give

it. No, I'm not saying it's bad. I don't

think Seems like it's on fine. I don't

think I don't think it on their own. I

don't think Skywatcher would like say

that that's definitely uh you know

endorse that as their thing, but because

they kind of blackbox it. But that could

be that could be real. So, what it's

saying um want to know how to make the

dog whistle for summoning UAP? Here's

how. Super easy. What's his signal? Um

7.83 hertz carrier via modulated 100

hertz bass tone human resonance. Do you

understand any of this? Me? Yeah. Do you

know what they're saying? Well, I guess

human resonance is the kind of, you

know, electromagnetic frequency of the

earth itself. And so I I don't know what

that means. Modulated via What is this

528 hertz harmonic spiritual frequency?

What is that? That's the lowest tone. I

don't know. Is that what it is, Jamie? I

I just know the numbers. So like uh when

you get up to 17k that's like that's a

high that's a real high pitch like oh

and the high numbers like that are low.

Yeah. And then low is oh so it's just a

that's th00and and then not thousand. So

20 hertz is as low as you can hear.

That's like a low bass sound. So I guess

there's being generated out of some sort

of machine which doesn't say here on

what you need to generate it but I don't

know if you just played on a piano or

anything you know. Interesting. And then

organic 2.5 hertz chirps every 10 second

like creature calls giving you it a

unique signature.

Huh. I don't know where he would get

this.

There used to be a There's so many cooks

out there. There are a lot. Boy, there's

so many cooks. There's so many cooks.

Cooks and grifters. It's infiltrated.

It's every So my my contrarian take

about UFOs is there are so many cooks

and grifters, but there are more people

with ulterior motives who are telling

partial truths than full cooks and

grifters. And that makes it so

complicated because you're like you're

bad vibes and you like are doing some

controlled opposition thing, but like I

have to listen to you because you have

some interesting info. Right. That's the

problem. That's when you're talking I've

had conversations with people like that

where I'm talking to them I'm like I

think you're at least partially full of

[ __ ] but like keep going. Yeah. Tell me

more. Yeah. Totally. You're like I know

there's some stuff and then I know

there's some [ __ ] you're giving me

and you want to see if I'll tell

somebody else that [ __ ] and then

you'll track it and like Right. Right.

It's this weird game. Well, the in the

age of disclosure, one of the things

they go into is that if these programs

have been running and if they have been

batch back engineering crafts that are

not of this world, there's a problem

with lying to Congress because

misappropriation of funds. So, anybody

who did that is going to jail. So, what

they're calling for is mass amnesty.

They're calling to say, "Hey, you know,

we've got to give amnesty to these

people that were involved in this

program, otherwise we're never going to

learn anything." And then there's the

problem with corporations. So, if you

give this to Loheed Martin, you know,

what does General Electric think about

that? Well, hey, you [ __ ] how

come you didn't clue us? So, then they

want to sue. So, then they sue the

federal government for, you know,

whatever, interfering with competition.

I Yes. So, there are all those issues.

And right now the UAP Disclosure Act is

up again. It was killed by a guy named

Mike Turner who has a bunch of

aerospace. The [ __ ] Mike. Mike, come on.

Mike Turner. Come on, Mike. He's out

now. He And guess what? He represented

Dayton, Ohio, where Wright Patterson Air

Force Base is

Jamie.

Sorry, Jamie. Jamie gets so excited when

you bring up Battel and all the Ohio

[ __ ] We've gone deep. I mean, Battel is

very implicated in all this stuff. Yeah.

from the ' 40s. from the ' 40s. The all

domain anomalies uh uh resolution

office, which is like the authoritative

office that is I think the modern blue

book that's you know basically saying

don't look here like this is all

[ __ ] or whatever. It's run by a guy

named Sean Kirkpatrick. He has all these

like atomic connections. He like worked

at Oakidge for God's sakes. hit the guy

that formed uh

Arrow upon whose recommendation Arrow

was formed is a guy named Ed Moltry who

is under secretary of defense for

intelligence and he was on Battel's

board and he scrubbed that from his

LinkedIn and my good friend UAP Gerb who

is an amazing channel he's super deep

UFO researcher showed that this was it

was on his resume and then he recommends

this that arrow forms it's like it's a

total conflict of interest. It's insane.

It's insane.

Yeah. There's so many bottlenecks to

disclosure like legal bottlenecks. Yes.

Like Yeah. Especially the

misappropriation of funds. I mean I mean

how much money was involved when you're

you must be talking about billions and

billions and billions of dollars if all

these programs are real. So if they've

been lying to Congress, it's on the

order. It has to be on and it's funny. A

lot of modern disclosure talks about OAP

and ATIP, these programs from 2007 to

2012 kind of under the opice of Harry

Reid, right? And that budget was $22

million. A single F-35 cost four times

that. The B2 costs like $2 billion. Like

give me a break. The nature of reality

you're going to spend $22 million on.

So, it's funny how the the whole

conversation is on this like clearly

this thing to like get more civilian

eyes on the issue, maybe see what they

can figure out or whatever. The core

program, if there is a core program,

which obviously I believe there's a core

program, it's on the order of that

speech that you've often cited that

Donald Rumsfeld made on September 10th,

2001, where he said $2 trillion was

missing from the Pentagon's budget. It's

[ __ ] like that. or this woman named

Katherine Austin Fitz who was just on

Tucker Carlson who is um at Housing and

Urban Development under uh George Bush

41 where she's talking about underground

tunnel systems and billions of dollars

missing in the budget. It is not this

little 1020 million. She's talking about

a $21 trillion breakaway civilization

that's been developed. Yeah. It's what?

Yeah. And she says it at a moment. First

of all, she's citing Richard Dolan who

Richard Dolan is like hardcore UFO

researcher. half that interview and

Tucker Carlson doesn't know who Richard

Dolan is. So it's this funny thing and

then she go and then he's like where are

the funds being used and she goes space

and it's like the where it's not being

used at SpaceX is supposed to be the tip

of the spear right SpaceX Blue Origin.

So like what do you mean space? Like

SpaceX is basically like those [ __ ]

go-karts that people send down hills

with no engines, right? You know what I

mean? Like what are those things called?

You know those things when they have

races where people they they make their

own little down the hill derby. Oh, no.

Not the Yeah. Yeah. Soap boxes. A little

soap boxes. Yeah. That's what it's like.

Yeah. That's what SpaceX is. Exactly. If

we have any of this [ __ ] that's what

SpaceX is. It's using really ancient

technology to achieve these results.

It's business. It's And I think Elon's

amazing. He's single-handedly

resuscitated NASA. But it is a it is an

earthbased space company. I think he

keeps stuff secret. He does. He

absolutely keeps stuff secret. When he

tells me there's no evidence of aliens,

like there's something about it that

just stinks. When he's saying it, I'm

like, "Okay." So, okay. I looking at

him. Uh, yeah. Nothing. Yeah. You don't

think nothing? I'll pop something. I

just want to see if Jesse's heard of

this before. I found stumbled down this

one. You guys were talking about uh some

stealth project. This is an article from

Wired in 1994. I looked up the guy who

wrote it. He's written a bunch of

articles about the black budget back

then and it's talking about a guy named

Steve Douglas who through monitoring

like uh the um sorry communications. He

heard different pilots talking about

what probably is the TR3 Black Manta

and then he says he's got a picture of

it. I couldn't find it anywhere online.

And it's nothing even close comes up to

it. But this says he had a video of it,

a picture. I'm assuming some people have

seen it cuz it talks about it. Then it

goes into talking more and more about

how he how he did this. He says he's got

files of them talking about all sorts of

different planes at night that you were

mentioning the Mach 6 Aura when I was

like when you said that is when I found

this on here. That's even I I haven't

seen it. There's obviously tons of

rumors about the TR3A and the TR3B. The

Belgian wave occurred around this time.

I think it was like late 80s, early 90s.

I think a lot of the triangle craft that

people see are human because it's just

it's a direct Phoenix Light stuff like

cuz a lot of people saw it during the

Phoenix Lights. They saw the triangle

craft. Kurt Russell was actually flying

his plane saw the Phoenix Light. This is

the one I brought up the other day that

they said they think was in Desert Storm

and they just don't really have any

proof online today. So the TR3B is the

this looks like the triangle thing that

everybody's seen. Yeah, look what is the

[ __ ] center of it. What is that all

about? Well, this is just probably

someone made, you know, a photo trying

to describe it, but the bottom of it is

what everybody says, you know, so the

the TR3 series that was built by

Northrep, I believe. Is that right? Like

Aurora was locked and that was if you

confirm that look like they No one knows

this is like no one has any proof of

these even existing. All the talk online

is back into the '9s of just like, do

these exist? We probably have them. No

one knows for sure. So, here's a weird

Okay, so I think it's this is North I

think TR3 the TR3 series is Northrep.

So, the connection between Northrup and

Towns and Brown is in the mid60s Towns

and Brown is being funded by a guy named

Floyd Odlam. Floyd Odlam is the the

majority owner of Northrup pre- merger

with Grumman. And so Towns and Brown is

doing these experiments at Guidance

Technologies. His outfit in Santa

Monica. This was all this investment was

inspired by Edward Teller seeing his

experiment and freaking out. He's doing

these experiments. Bill Leers is

actually has an office across the

street. They're doing all sorts of cool

innovative stuff. He does a series of

presentations. Curtis Lame for the Rand

Corporation for all sorts of kind of,

you know, head honchos when it comes to

American military. In

1967 uh uh guidance technology shuts

down with no explanation. They say you

know our results all failed. But after a

bunch of the a series of these highle

meetings that was at the end of 1967 3

months later at the beginning of

1968 Northrup publishes a paper called

electro aerodynamics and supersonic flow

or in supersonic flow and it is

basically paying homage to

electrohydrodnamics and towns and browns

work. It is exactly part and parcel

towns and browns work. Uh they then do a

press release at the time. They retract

the press release because they are

embarrassed. Then later Bill Scott at

Aviation Week in I think 1992 says the

the B2 surfs its own wave using the

Biffield Brown effect. There's a guy

who's known as the Doyen of uh uh

British aviation journalism. His name is

Bill Gunston and he um in in uh Air

International magazine is doing a survey

level overview of all aero engine tech

since World War II. And he says uh I am

I'm familiar with the rud rudiments of

Thomas Towns and Brown's work, but I

don't want to end up in the Tower of

London. So, I will refrain from talking

about millions of volts charged positive

to millions of volts charged negative on

the trailing edge of the wing of the B2

stealth bomber. Yes. And what is the

Tower of London? What's that reference

to? He's just saying I don't want to end

up in jail. Tower of London is probably

where Jack the Ripper ended up or I

don't think it was like in, you know,

but he's like, "Don't get out of my ass.

Surfs its own wave." Surfs its own wave.

So if you put that electro aerodynamics

and supersonic flow paper which is

available you could put that into chat

GBT and how it could be like how can

this confer an advantage to an airframe

for you know yeah you can do that and do

that I'll tell you what it's do yeah

it's wild it's wild it'll give you a

bunch of answers own so that's the paper

yeah how do I download it then

electroeramics

so my point if the T if the TR3A and B

are real. Like the B2, the B2 is still

so locked down. We sell F-35s to allied

nations, Norway, Canada, you know,

whatever. We don't sell B2s to anybody,

even including Allied nations. The the

the the ticket price is 2 billion. They

have a new version of the B2 that's, you

know, I think like 700 million or

whatever. They weren't built at scale.

They're extremely locked down. It's

pretty crazy. Wow.

So what would they be doing? Like how

would it be surfing its own wave? Like

what what advantage would that confer?

If you do this chat GPT thing, it'll say

it doesn't split the airflow as much and

so you get more lift and there's reduced

drag. The the shock wave is reduced. The

electric fields somehow interact with

the particles at the boundary layer

where the the frame hits the air. And so

there are a bunch of theoretical things

that are honestly probably a little

above my pay grade, but that even, you

know, conventional AI will tell you that

it will do as far as being helped.

Guntohead, how far do you think they've

gotten this stuff,

man? I mean, this stuff was being this

was like 80s and they were probably

maybe building in the early 80s or maybe

late 70s. So definitely way farther than

that, you So, do you do you entertain

the possibility that this thing that

Lazar talked about that we see on the

desk right there, the sport model, do

you think that that was ours? That feels

really hard for me to to to say in good

faith because that was around the time

that the BT was just being unveiled.

Also, no seams like it's 3D printed.

Totally. Element 113 or 115 rather and

this generator that nobody understands.

Yeah, I I'm de I think that is more of

the variety of something that would

crash in the New Mexico desert. That is,

and this is where it gets weird because

everybody wants a clean solution.

Everybody wants the the anti-gravity,

the UFOs to be a cover for the

anti-gravity, including Lazar. Like he

said when he saw the sticker on it,

there was American flag sticker on the

sport model. He's like, "Oh, I get it.

This these are ours." Yep. That's why

people keep seeing them. And then as he

starts examining these things, he's

like, "No." Yep. This is not ours. Like,

"What the [ __ ] is this? This is meant

for 3ft tall things. There's no controls

in this." Like, what is this? If reality

has a governor on it, and we're we're in

weird territory. We're just talking

about AI and all this stuff is just

getting so weird. Quantum computing. If

reality has a governor on it, like a

like a governor on a motor, you take the

governor off. Do you get is it like a

hydra where you cut the head off and you

get five in its place or do you get one

neat solution? You don't get one neat

solution. Of course not. It's a zoo of

things. And so at the time that like the

government's kind of unraveling and all

these we have all these transparency

initiatives or whatever and you get

these secret science lineages and then

our our apertures are people are waking

up to greater realities. the fact that

the pandemic could even happen like is

sort of so crazy and then it makes you

question like what what about the Gulf

of Tonk and USS Maine and all these

things. I think all of this stuff is

coming out at the same time and it's not

necessarily this neat solution where the

anti-gravity just you know accounts for

the UFOs and the aliens and the UFOs and

nukes stuff which was happening since

the 40s where it's like I don't I don't

know how I I can't explain that via

anti-gravity experiments

and then there's a question of how many

how many different civilizations visit

us how many different things how many

different versions of these things are

there if this is like a testing ground.

Is it is this open to the general public

of space? Al also not zero or one.

Probably zero or 100. It's probably a

zoo of things, right? It's that's the

most likely thing. That was what was

interesting about your episode that you

did with Fowler where they were

documenting the different shapes and I'm

like, okay, where's the flying saucer?

You don't have a flying saucer in this.

How come you don't have a flying saucer?

You have all these other shapes.

Totally. You have a tic tac. You have a

Tetris or whatever the [ __ ] it is.

Uh-huh. Where's the one that everybody

sees? The iconic Yeah. Billy Meyers.

Yeah. Yeah. That's weird. Yeah. You

know, it is weird. Also, do you work for

the CIA? I do not. I do not work for the

CIA. Do you have to answer if I ask you?

Is it like you remember those movies

where you ask a guy if they're an

undercover cop? You ask them if they're

a cop, they have to tell you. People

really used to believe that, but it's

just a fictional tool. They don't really

have to tell you that they're undercover

cops. They don't have to tell you. But

there is I think there's like 1 22

triple 3 or whatever where like if

you're CIA you can't be [ __ ] with

domestic stuff which I think they break

all the [ __ ] time. So I don't think

that's a reason. They probably passed

laws that bypassed that a long time ago

for sure. Well I Yeah. I mean I think

they also killed JFK. This is the

Baineson Lab video. There you go. What's

really crazy is that looks remarkably

similar to the design that Lazar said

the generator looks like that's inside

the UFO. Well, here's something crazy.

Lazar says there are two different

gravities, gravity A and gravity B.

Again, I think Townsen Brown was a poor

theorist, but he wrote a paper called

the structure of space while he was at

Martin Vega Corporation. By the way,

Towns and Brown started working at

Martin Vega the year that skunk works

formed, which I think is very

interesting. Um, and he says in

structure of space there are two forms

of gravity. He says there are gravity

wells and gravity hills. And he talk he

talks about how the Yeah, it's crazy. He

talks about the protons um in an atom

outweighing the electrons. And so you

get this weak positive charge for all ma

matter that creates uh a gravity well

like this inward pull. But in fact, it's

sort of this electromagnetic derivative

or whatever in his model. And again, I

would not overindex on his theory. I

think there's tons of proof that he just

figured out this topological physics

effect and other people figured out

theory. Maybe even they just have like

locally useful theories. Ryan Graves was

on your show and talked about extended

electronamics. Hal Putoff's probably the

top tip of the spear as far as a lot of

theory around this exotic stuff. Sunny

White, you know, other people like that.

But um yeah, it is interesting that you

both of these guys had two versions of

gravity. Yeah, it's very interesting.

It's very interesting. And the the Lazar

stuff to me, it's if a guy's going to be

a liar like that, he's going to tell a

lot of lies, right? It's not going to be

just one lie from ' 89. Yeah. You know

what I mean? That you basically say the

same version of forever. Yeah. I mean

the the the other weird thing in that

story is in Messengers of Deception,

Jacques Valle's book, he talks about

because he's not a believer in Lazar. He

talks about Lazar being forced to drink

a liquid. And Lazar even talks about

this openly that he was forced to to

drink a liquid and it tastes like pine

or something and it and it causes memory

lapses in certain cases. So that's also

a weird factor. But there is so much I

think my buddy Luigi I also have a good

friend named Chris Ramsey who has an

amazing UFO channel called Area 52 and

he's met Lazar through Luigi and I don't

want to blow up their spot but they've

given me a lot of ammo as far as just

Lazar being at Area 51 S4 and so it's

it's so fascinating. So they gave him

this liquid to kill his memory. That's

the idea behind it. I don't know if he

knew the intent. it was just drink this

or whatever. And then he said that it

caused at least in the Valle readout he

says that it caused memory lapses is the

quote in messengers of deception.

H but here's this where it gets so

confusing. If you have MK Ultra was

super widespread. It was deleted you

know the church committee or whatever

but like it was it was a very widespread

program. What would be one of the number

one use cases where you'd use MK Ultra?

It wouldn't necessarily be to trick

somebody into view saying that they saw

a flying saucer. It would be around the

flying saucer program to [ __ ] with the

person's memory so that they couldn't

read certain things out, right? So, it's

just this again, it's hard to say. Well,

then there's also weird stuff like the

large folder that was on religion. Yes.

You know, like how much of that is just

misinformation. I think a lot of that

was passage material cuz it's similar to

passage material. What does that mean?

It's basically stuff given to somebody

where it's like certain provably false

things. You can track where the provably

false stuff goes or whatever. It's also

a litmus test to see if they'll believe

it. It's like spooky intel [ __ ] And in

in 79, there's a guy named Rick Dodie

who drives a guy named Paul Benowitz

insane. Basically, he views this

vertically taking off and landing exotic

craft at Kirtland Air Force Base where

there are a lot of interesting things,

you know, seen. And um he is is shown

similar things along with Linda Molton

How is taken uh in front of a two-way

mirror and Rick Dodie, this Air Force

Office of Special Investigations agent

who we know is acting in bad faith at

that time. he's even come out and

admitted this shows her this thing

called Project Garnett and it is oddly

similar around accelerated evolution to

the stuff that they showed Lazar. Also,

if you have a UFO program that's

extremely compartmentalized, why at the

same time give the person this like

onlogical model of reality while you're

compartmentalizing it? Doesn't make

sense. So, and this is what I love about

Lazar. Lazar will admit that like he's

like I think a lot of that stuff could

have been fake and [ __ ] and I only

am relaying what I saw when with regards

to the craft and I don't take any of

that stuff fully at face value. So it

was there's project Galileo, there's

time, there's looking glass, you know,

there are these projects that were super

interesting and spooky and I think

worthy of engagement with like all these

weird limited hangouts are. But do any

of these people that supposedly had had

contact with extraterrestrial entities

or interdimensional or whatever they

are, do any of these people recall a

conversation where they warn us about

AI?

That's such a great question. I don't

think so. I don't think so either. It's

almost always nuclear. That seems crazy.

Well, maybe that seems crazy that there

there's no discussion about you are on

the verge of something truly

spectacular. Maybe AI is their control

system. Maybe they are AI. Maybe they

are AI. Maybe AI becomes that. Maybe

biological

limitations need to be traversed and the

best way to traverse them is to

eliminate biology. We are now

experimenting with computational

biology. You can use things like like

this neuroscientist Carl Fristen, the

free energy princ there's this company

called Cortical Labs and I I think they

might play up some of their results, but

they use these microelerode uh plate

arrays and they program like rat

cultured rat neurons to do basic

computational rat uh tasks. And so like

if that's the super base level, right?

Like we're just creating the like

transistors for this like new model of

computation. But if you go way out into

the future. You have anatomical

compilers, 3D printers of bodies, and

you know, these things could be drone

avatar. That's why when people are like,

why do they crash? This could be their

Earth homeostasis kit that they've

deployed. They're just Vonoyman

replicator probes meant to, you know,

oversee the Earth. And, you know, a

little node lights up when we create

nuclear or like an AI thing or like

Well, it's also like Basula, you know,

Diana Basulka. She she thinks they're

donations. That's what she says. Yeah.

They're called donation sites and yeah

like which is like if you want

accelerated evolution like hey wouldn't

it be cool if you guys made this leave

the wheel you know just look over here

leave this leave that it kind of I mean

that's the way to get someone to think

outside the box plant the seed yeah you

just you you don't want to wait for

these morons to figure out how to make

this if you were trying to accelerate

technological evolution in North

Sentinel Island which has no contact

with humans what would you you might

just airdrop a computer. Figure it out.

You know, they'd be like, "A computer?

This is start with a lighter." Sure. I

don't think they have fun. Yeah. Yeah.

Computer might be a little advanced.

Yeah. But yeah, you would give them some

stuff. Yep. Yeah. And let them figure

out how to make that stuff and give them

the raw materials to make that stuff.

Totally. Especially if you like you have

some complex alloy like this bismouth,

whatever the hell it is with layered

like find that, figure that out. Can you

make it like you get your best

scientists and you compartmentalize it?

You do it over decades because you

really can't open it up. And this is one

of the things that Lazar said that he

had deep frustration about while working

at S4 is that you can't do science like

that where everything's

compartmentalized. You need to be able

to open it up to collaboration. And

there was you couldn't collaborate. You

weren't allowed to. Yeah. So it's like

we're not going to get anywhere. Okay.

We're going to bring in new people, you

know? We're going to bring in a new guy.

See if this new genius can Hey, what do

you think of this? It's like what is it?

You tell me. That could be a part of

what's happening with disclosure where

if you have cold war war era secrecy.

It's like if we're ahead of Russia and

China, clamp down. We like can't let

them know anything, right? But then all

of a sudden maybe they play catch-up.

And then all of a sudden maybe you have

this archaic cargo cult system that

doesn't work anymore to avoid foyer

requests where you have restricted data

covering, you know, uh material found by

specific aerospace corporations that

aren't even our best and brightest when

it comes to our defense primes anymore

or whatever. And you're you're at the

top of the national security pie and

you're like, "Holy [ __ ] like we need to

update this stuff. So, we need to

broaden the surface area without giving

away the crown jewels. We need some

disclosure on these things. You can't It

is maladaptive from a national security

standpoint to have some STEM student in

Kentucky who's a prodigy to not even

think this [ __ ] is real. Right. Right.

Right. And then you're dealing with

China where they've got it completely

opened up and they're like, "Make this

completely opened up." And like I don't

know if you've read there's a um great

uh Chinese science fiction novel called

The Three Body Problem. Great show on

Netflix, too. It's amazing. and the the

CCP will show up at your door and say

come work for us. You are working here

and that's not really the way we do

things. So the way we do things is like

you get the stuff out in these kind of

partial limited hangouts. You go compete

like just like the AI stuff, you know,

right? It's like see what happens over

there. If you leak it, they'll just

[ __ ] kill you. Exactly. You're not

gonna leak it. No. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's

to me the the question of civilization.

Are we alone? It is the question and I

don't think we are. Yeah, that's my my

my gut instinct. I don't think we are.

It seems so ridiculous when people do

think we are. You know, I agree. I just

But what about the numbers? Just the

sheer numbers like it doesn't make any

sense that this is so unique that we in

this one very tiny planet. It's spinning

around a not so special star. AAM's

razor is we are not alone. You have the

Firmeny paradox. You have the Drake

equation. You have all these sort of

rationalist ways of arguing that. But

also look at there's a great book called

The Half-Life of Facts by Sam Arbisman.

And he talks about how like at any given

time 50% of you know received knowledge

like our our physical model of the

universe is wrong. So you can say those

things are showing up in the sky that is

wrong because physics but historically

you would have been wrong. Like that's

crazy. It's a bad point, right? And so

if you actually look at, you know,

whether we're alone or not, modern

enlightenment history is a detour from

the past. If you look at every culture,

whether it's or or maybe a better

example is medieval Christianity with

St. Thomas Aquinas or just read the New

Testament like a multitude of angels.

You have angels and demons, you know,

that's kind of the passport to Meonia,

Dina, American cosmic thesis. Like this

stuff has been going on forever. You

look at the the Davas and you know in in

Hindu culture or the jin in in Islamic

culture like we are outnumbered in our

modern you know enlightenment rational

skeptic epistemology. Yeah we really

are. And how many depictions from the

past of flying things? Ezekiel from the

Bible vimmanas all these different like

what are they saying? What are these

things? Like what do you think that

stuff is? Like what is it? Yeah. You

know, and but then again, you and I,

neither one of us have had an

experience. So, we're we're just like

[ __ ] seeing in the wind. I've seen a

UFO. But what have you seen? I've seen a

few. But, um, really? Yeah. Yeah. How

have you been so lucky? I don't know. I

don't know. And because they know there

like, who knows? There are UFO

researchers that like don't like to talk

about this, but I think the move is just

be honest. Like, I've seen the thing and

I don't know what to say. Uh, I was in

Laurel Canyon where I used to live and

um I saw a thing that looked like a

[ __ ] school bus. It looked like like

no visible propulsion. This like sort of

low humming noise or whatever. It was

maybe 50 60 70 ft high like above the

tree right above the treetops. Uh the

the the trippiest part of the experience

and why this is it's just so weird is I

was with um this woman I was kind of

dating at the time and we were taking a

walk in Laurel Canyon and uh she was

like uh are you into aliens? I was like

actually I kind of am into I was kind of

interested in that topic and and then I

think I joked back I was like I kind of

want to meet an alien and she was like

me too. And then she goes uh you'll

you'll meet them when you're when you

stop looking for them. Oh that [ __ ] is

an alien.

And then as we're as we're this is the

weirdest part of the whole story. As

we're walking, it's like sunset in

Laurel Canyon. We walk by a guy with a

metal detector who's like looking for

something. It's like why are you looking

for something at sunset in Laurel Canyon

or whatever. So like that felt like this

weird like you know like mirroring of

our conversation. I again I have no

[ __ ] idea. Then we walk in into this

little clearing and we see this like

school bus thing like just go right over

the tree. What color was it? It was

silver metallic

like an Airstream trailer. Like an air

like an Airstream ta trailer. Yeah, I

can send you guys a video. I went on

Chris Ramsey's podcast. I described it

and I was sent a video and for all I

know, this video is [ __ ] fake, by the

way. But it was the thing that looked

most like what I saw because it's

doesn't match up with like the saucer,

you know, triangle thing. Yeah. And I

don't know, I am almost more inclined to

say discount my own thing over like the

Qcle cleared guys who've like seen these

things at new. What was it in the sky

for? It was in the sky for like a a few

seconds because we couldn't even see

past the clearing or whatever. She said

she saw it go over the trees and then

descend down into the distance. I did

not see that. Huh. And like you're

talking Laurel Canyon has is like mostly

residential. So like like where did it

descend? Right. Right.

I don't know. So, what else have you

seen? You said you saw more than one

thing. Yeah. So, another time I was

actually with a friend who invests like

with me and Peter and is like the most

rational guy you'll ever meet. Like he's

uh he's a fan of like Nam Chosky and

like David Hume like like he is a modern

rationalist atheist skeptic. And uh we

went surfing that day. We were back at

his place. I was super into holotropic

breath work at the time which I I love.

And uh we were doing holographic breath

work. Five minutes in, we both see these

like metallic looking orbs. This was

this time super high up into in the sky

like uh probably, you know, higher than

what you would definitely higher than a

drone. And one's bobbing above him,

one's bobbing above me. Similar to like

the typical like orb that, you know, a

lot of people sort of describe like the

Mosul orb or whatever, you know, a lot

of these sightings. And um he looks at

me and he I go like, "What the [ __ ] is

that?" He goes, "Dude, I think that's

like some secret black locked tech or

whatever." And then I don't even say

anything. Two seconds goes by and then

he looks at me and he goes, "Dude,

that's not [ __ ] from here." He's

like, "That's not Lockheed. Like I don't

know what that is." Do you entertain the

possibility there states of

consciousness that you could achieve

where these things become visible?

Absolutely. And you've had Rick Straman

on. He talks, you know, DMT, the spirit

molecule. He talks about DMT as like

night vision or like like it's like a

it's like goggles or a window, you know,

it's like Aldis Huxley, the doors of

your perception. Are you superimposing a

hallucination onto reality or are you

just seeing? We see a limited part of

the electromagnetic wave spectrum. We

see between 400 and 700 nanometers. Our

audio range, you know, there's a certain

decel limit, right? So, like when you

take a substance like that, are you

seeing things that are in objective

reality, but we just don't have access

to them? It's it's actually adaptive for

us not to have access to them in our

waking reality. And so, it's this

interesting philosophical question. I

don't know the answer to it, right?

Would we be would we even be able to

function if we had access to that?

Probably not. Probably not. No, it is.

There's a guy named Donald Hoffman who's

a cognitive psychologist and he talks

about it's like why don't we see

electromagnetic waves themselves like

why aren't you seeing Hertz frequencies

it's we need to iconize everything we

see just like a you know desktop

computer you know like why do you see

red because oh boom red blood got to run

you know whatever and then they hack

that with notifications on social media

but the point is we are seeing

inherently a collapsed condensed version

of reality we aren't seeing the thing

itself

Yeah. And so it ends up in these

onlogical loops where like yeah, some

rationalist skeptic can be like you're

you're lying. That's it ends up in this

not even wrong category of like I can't

say that what I just said is

definitively true as far as it being a

window into some other realm. But

neither the skeptic we just live in the

age of disenchantment where you say

don't trust your eyes, right? And

they're that's as much faith-based dogma

as what I'm saying. So who knows? And

that's why I rest when I talk about this

stuff on the show, I rest more on the

nuclear cases because it fits to our

modern epistemology more, right? But

it's not to say you should discount

these, you know, people's experiences

where they do, you know, maybe they're

in a peak state of consciousness and

they experience a thing. Maybe that

thing is real either. There might be

multiple different types of things that

come by. And the the nuclear one is a

weird one. I mean, if you were from

another planet or some other place and

you recognized an emerging civilization

that had nuclear capabilities, you'd be

like, "Hey [ __ ] slow down. Hit the

break, son." You know, you would freak

out unquestionably. You know, that's why

we named the the rooms at the Comedy

Mothership, Fat Man and Little Boy,

because that's when they started showing

up. That's when we got a lot of

sightings was post post the bombs.

Totally. And I love I love the

mothership, by the way. It's amazing.

And I love going and seeing how UFO the

like, you know, in preparation for this,

I've had a couple friends be like, "Man,

Joe Joe's like anti-UFO though." And I'm

like, "No, he's just frustrated with

disclosure. Go to the mothership. The

whole [ __ ] thing is getting so

anybody say I'm anti UFO. There's

[ __ ] UFOs everywhere. It's one of the

desk. There's one behind me. I know.

That's so sad. And you broke the biggest

UFO story of all time. Like it's You've

done more for disclosure than anybody in

my opinion." Well, I'm not anti-UFO, but

I'm I'm allergic to [ __ ] And this

stuff, some of it smells like [ __ ]

which is I would be remiss if we didn't

talk about those little mummies in Peru.

Yeah, dude. What do you think is going

on there? They break my brain. They were

They are They are This was the most

frustrating case I've ever had to deal

with. And I wish I could give you a

definitive these things are definitely

dead aliens. I cannot say that

definitively at all. I do think there's

a lot of reason to believe that they are

forensically organisms. They are re

they're organisms that if they're not

they're incredible works of art. If

they're not they are the most

sophisticated hoax ever that that

basically tricked forensic experts from

uh John McDow who run who just won the

the greatest award in forensics you

could win or whatever. um the grandall

award uh who is the president of the

American Forensics uh uh scientific

association or whatever in the US. Jim

Kur Caruso who's the medical examiner,

chief medical examiner uh in Denver. Uh

the equivalent of McDow is a guy named

Dr. David Ruiz. So he's the Peruvian

head of their forensics association and

the head of the Mexican Navy forensics.

This guy named Dr. Jose Sal. All of

these guys have seen so I think we're

kind of getting ahead of ourselves.

Let's explain to people this so they can

be standalone cuz a lot of people like

what the [ __ ] are they talking about?

There are these very small mummified

looking things that are in Peru that

seem to look exactly like

a similar kind of thing to a human being

but varies enough that you know it's not

us. And it has more ribs. it is more

spinal columns or more more um more

discs. This is what they look like. And

there's X-rays of them. And that's where

it gets really weird. And they're

tridactyl, right? So they have three

fingers and three toes. Yep. And the So

these were discovered in 2015 in a cave

uh by a guy named Leandro, who goes by

Mario. And this is one of the headaches

about the case is like we don't have

good provenence on it. So he is this

werro uh gravedigger guy. And they were

found in dietmacous earth. So there's

actually an idea that they might not

even be mummies. Dietimmacous earth is a

desicant. And so they were dried out and

a lot of the organs are actually still

inside the the the bodies. And there are

three different types. There are S types

which are these little winged creatures.

There are J types. The J types are

probably they were most popularized in

this Mexican congress where these things

were outed in September of 2023 where um

they look like almost Close Encounters.

Jamie, if you scroll down, like you see

that peruse congress like right there.

Like that thing looks like this like

jokey like Close Encounters of the Third

Kind. Like it looks like it looks

totally fake. Right. So that's those are

the J types. They're like 25ish, maybe

25 to 30 of those. And then there's the

ones that they've x-rayed and that's

where it gets really weird. The weirdest

ones that I was talking about the

forensics people kind of evaluating are

these M types. These are like four to

five feet. They look pretty anatomically

consistent. Have you seen them in

person? I have. Really? Yeah. And what

what was your feeling? My feeling was it

was this Keep those images up, please.

It was, as with a lot of these things,

oscillating between, holy [ __ ] this

thing is not from here, and then, dude,

you have to like chill and like there's

so many other things, you know, there's

so many other gates this has to get

through for us to to actually, you know,

verify this stuff. See if you can get

the go the X-rays, Jamie. Find the

images from the X-rays. That That's one,

but there's one that's a little bit

better because it's one of the fetal

position. Um, it's uh Jamie in my

document actually. Look at that one.

Okay, there you

go. So, that one has eggs inside of it.

What? If you go Yeah. Monzer Monzerat,

which is hips. Yeah. How weird. So, if

you go to Yeah. If you go to um Monzerat

clip. Yeah. So, this this one's pregnant

and has what they are claiming to be a

tridactyl fetus inside of it. Yeah. How

many of these do they have? So, they

have 8 to 10 of these M types, these

kind of most realistic looking ones.

Eight to 10. 8 to 10. And then they have

uh 25 to 30 of the J types. So, yeah,

look at that. That's a that's a 3D

reconstruction of the CAT scan. What?

So, they have teeth. That's weird. They

have teeth. Yeah, they have they have

tendons. They have bones. They have

cartilage. They have organs inside. And

then I So, this is where we need to

verify stuff. They even have actually um

Could you go back to the part of the

video where What's that? Yeah, that

part. What the [ __ ] is that, man? That's

crazy. They have osmium and cadmium

implants in them, which are rare earth

metals that were discovered in the 19th

century, too. This

is art. If someone made this, I need to

buy one. Like, you need to tell me how

much this costs. I need to put it on my

table cuz you're a genius. If you've

made that and you tricked everybody into

thinking that that's real, you're a

goddamn genius and you shouldn't just be

hoaxing people. Well, so then the

alternative is that's real. If that's

real, that's completely insane. Joe,

fortunately and unfortunately for you

maybe, but unfortunately for the case,

these weras, these gravediggers are

selling some of these things on the

black market. And this case is the wild

wild west. It is so much I get I've

heard seven figures. Seven figures. I've

heard a lot of money. Um Jeez Louise.

But um is Peter Teal buying one of

these? Don't say yes.

Look at that thing. It's wow. So crazy.

But there there are serious problem. I

can I I want to caveat all of this and

like, you know, I don't want to be

overly sensationalist about this. If

it's a hoax, it's the best hoax ever. It

is the My friend Michael Misola who like

kind of rolled the red carpet down,

allowed me to even see these things.

he's making a video or making a

documentary on this um that's coming out

this August and it's called this is not

a hoax. I told them to put in

parenthesis or this is the most

sophisticated hoax ever because the DNA

testing sucks. There's no signal the

signal to noise ratio sucks on the DNA.

How come?

because there was probably human

contamination like the the um the uh uh

NCBI which is this like biotech

repository where you have a lot of this

genetic information on two of the bodies

Victoria and Maria uh this is all

publicly available they've done analysis

on this and like the camp that is very

pro you know these being alien is this

guy Haime MSAN and he is um I actually

think he's awesome I love He's um like

this former 60 Minutes guy in Mexico and

he's paid a lot of money to protect a

lot of the these bodies. He's very open

about like we just need more scientific

research. Uh you know, he wants more

eyes on this thing, but some of the

genetics uh you know, some of the

genetics researchers that they're basing

the stuff on. I spoke to one of them.

This guy's name is Dr. Ricardo Ronell

and he's a biologist. I don't think he's

actually a geneticist. And his belief is

like he was like this is you know

there's 30% of this is like unknown DNA

that we don't know and then in the 70%

you have mitochondrial DNA from Myonmar

and then you have um uh uh DNA from a

parasite in Africa and you also have

bonobos and chimpanzeee DNA which means

it was an ancient primate that uh held

this DNA uh uh uh because it was before

they phoggenetically split off. So what

he's saying and this is crazy is he was

saying that like a a a homminid species

an early homminid species went from Asia

to Africa and because there's some

theories that they actually you know

East Africa is not like the the first

homminid species maybe it was East Asia

so it's already like kind of requiring

some leaps of logic or whatever and then

had sex with this like primate thing and

you end up with this hybrid and then

another leap of logic is that before

Pizaro and all the kungista is like

there was there's actually like

transmission of you know beings from

Africa to South America. I don't believe

that. That's it's crazy. It's like

saying that you know the Penglin theory

is better than the you know the the

Wuhan lab leak theory which is just like

AAM's razor. That's not real. Um well we

do know that there were other types of

homminids that coexisted with human

beings. Dennisovvens. Yeah. The the

Flora people the the hobbit people. What

what is the carbon dating on these

things? Carbon dating ranges from 700

years ago, which would actually be

Incan. That would be because Incan

started in like 1450.

Um, and then uh all the way down to 800,

1800 years ago, which is the Nazca

people. That's what's fascinating

because, you know, there's this there's

this mystery of the Hobbit people,

right, where they they didn't really

think that that was there's a lot of

speculation that it was some

bizarre type of human being that was

deformed and tiny. And then they

realized like, no, this is a specific

branch of the human chain just like

Dennis Oven, just like

Neanderl. There's a thing called the

Orang Pend. Have you ever heard of that?

No. What is that? They think I believe

it's Indonesia and maybe Vietnam, uh,

where people talk about these little

tiny hairy people that live in the

jungle. Whoa. And so these Flores

things, there's there's a few biologists

that believe these things are still

alive. Interesting. They think even on

the island of Flores, they might still

be alive. What? Yeah. Are you serious?

Right. So if they're alive, if this

turns out to be true, like let's imagine

it is cuz there's been things like the

celacanth which they thought were

extinct for millions of years and then

they caught one and they're like, "Oh my

god, this is a prehistoric fish and

still alive and now they know that

there's a population of them." But this

is the deep ocean, right? Much less

explored. Um, but when you look at

Indonesia, when you look at uh Flores,

the island of Flores, look at all these

places like you're talking about

insanely dense vegetation that is

virtually uninhabited.

So maybe like and these things used to

live on that island for sure. We've got

bones. We know they lived. We know they

used tools. We know they probably had

language. They lived on that island.

They might still be alive. So, we didn't

know about these things and I think was

it the '9s I think when they discovered

them. Dennisovven's I think was like

2010. And then this new species, the

big-headed people. Were they julians?

What are they called? Yeah, that's it.

That's like a few months ago, right?

They found these, right? And this is

another type of human being. So, what

what are the odds that there's some

three-footed three-toed thing that

existed a few thousand years ago? And

there are pictoglyphs all over the

region, both in Nazca and Pulpa in

southern Peru. So, this is one that

looks fake as [ __ ] but this guy is

driving in his motorcycle and he's uh

filming and he claims that he got this

thing running away. No way. A little

hairy thing. Yeah. You could see as he's

riding his motorcycle, he this thing

like darts across the road in front of

him. And this is a few years ago, too,

where, you know, CGI sucked. So, there

it is. You could see it real briefly for

a second. It just runs across the road.

Look at that. Oh my god. What is that? I

don't know. But if this thing did exist

at one point in time, I mean, god damn,

it looks good. Yeah. If it did exist at

one point in time and people do see it

all the time, it there might be a small

population of them that are still alive,

that thing, the X-ray of it or the the

MRI, the CAT scan looked human but

weird. Yes. But the teeth and the jaw,

it looked like a deformed human. And

there it is important to note that there

were skull elongation rituals going on

as early as the Paracas people which

were pre uh the Nazca people. What were

they imitating? That's the interesting

question. What? The Nazca lines. Why are

they making They It's probably humans

that made these things, but they're

things that only make sense from an

aerial view. And they're miles long. And

they're miles long. What are you doing?

And there are there are pictoglyphs, you

know, cave art all over the region with

three fingered beings with tidactyl

beings. Are there really? There are. And

this is the weirdest thing. There's a

guy named Theoria who is like the first

westerner. He's this French kind of he's

an amazing archaeologist and explorer.

And um he was the first guy that met

Leandro, the the the um uh gravedigger

who found the bodies to begin with.

He ki is the actually like local dialect

there that's spoken. He says that the

name of the general region means

uh laboratory for insemination and

cloning. What? Yeah. What? Yeah. In

Calki. Yeah. What? So, like I have I I

need to corroborate this. Like I don't

have the the skills to do that, but like

that's what he says. It's crazy. What

the [ __ ] man? I know. But then holy

[ __ ] Why this case is such a headache

is like there's this guy Steve Meera who

I think is a totally he's a he's a UFO

researcher. He's the one of the less

mushyrained UFO researchers. There's a

lot of mushy brain UFO researchers.

Really smart guy. I've like quoted him

in a lot of my other videos. And he's

like, we looked at one of the M types,

one of the bigger ones that like I'm

still holding out hope for cuz like I'd

love it to be real. And he said that he

did genetic analysis on two of the

fanges and one came back male, one came

back female. And so he was like, I think

they were constructed. But I'm like, how

do you get by these forensic experts? So

it's this weird, it's just the DNA

stuff. You don't get a good signal. And

the reason that nobody even cares, this

is the most interesting

paleoarchchaeological case today in my

opinion. The reason that people don't

even care is because in 2023 when these

were popularized by Haime Massan where

he rolled out this Jai Posaphina, the

one that looked like kind of Close

Encounters with the Third Kind in front

of the Mexican Congress.

This guy named Manuel Caceras who was an

artist who was making renditions of the

things with like wood and sticks and

stuff glued together. He was apprehended

at the airport by the chief Peru

prosecutor, this guy named Flavio

Estrada. And there were Reuters picked

this up saying this is all fake because

of these fake and I have this in this

documentary that I'm coming out with

where he goes this was art. Um we dub it

but he goes this was art. It's crazy. So

that's the signals crossed. The signals

crossed and I think if there's anything

about this case it's like let's get our

best and brightest on it and figure it

out. I think we can figure it out

quickly if we had the right research.

And there all these interpols like you

can't move the bodies from from Peru and

it's crazy. Well, even if it's just a

different branch of the human chain, I

mean that just if it if that's a

different branch off the human tree,

that's fascinating enough. I agree that

there's like three-fingered, three-toed

people that lived totally with a weird

shaped head. And if you find if the

there is phenotypic inheritance where

you find that the tridactyl being inside

Monzerat's belly is also tractyl then at

what point do you go this is the how can

he hoax that? How can he hoax that?

That's crazy. Yeah. So and and he's by

the way is the head of the Mexican um uh

medical navy uh uh he he was thrown in

jail for supporting this case because

they were like we don't want to be

associated with this. And now the new

secretary of the Navy in Mexico has

brought him back and he's sort of being

vindicated. But he is like I was like

Jose like if you showed this cat scan

image of the baby tridactyl to any

normal doctor they didn't know anything

about the case would they say it had

three fingers. He goes yes. So if that's

the case I think that is a big deal. But

then you have the Steve Mera thing. So I

just I don't want to come out fully, you

know. I don't know. Of course. Of

course. Yeah. Of course. But I mean, how

much evidence would there be? This is

the problem with fossils, right? Because

when things die, they don't really

create fossils unless it's a very

extraordinary instance, you know, like

something unusual has to occur. You got

to get trapped in mud, right? You know

that's how so most of the things that

have lived we don't have fossils of

which is if this thing was a small

percentage or small population small

percentage of the the living humans and

some of them are like that and they just

died off like 500 years ago thousand

years ago and these ones got saved

because they were around a dietimmacous

earth mine which preserved their organs

and their whole body. Just from an

anthropology perspective that should be

the most fascinating thing but it's got

the stink of a hoax on it. So people

don't want to go and study it. Yeah. I

totally part of what I almost want to do

is like a nature of reality fund that I

tie to the show where I'm like I I see

so many cases like this where I'm like

if we just had some money and it's like

so important for humanity, right? And

it's like nonprofit. It's just let's

just pay to get the best people. I think

like one of the problems with modernity

is like the smartest people are working

on the dumbest problems. We're building

$15 billion particle accelerators.

People are stuck in string theory. We're

like debating all this dumb [ __ ] And

you have these things. I don't know if

they're real. You can debunk it. Fine.

But if they're real, and it's not 0%

that they're real according to these

forensic experts. Let's pour some

resources into it. Yeah, it might be

real. They look real. They look kind of

real. They look very real. When I was in

person, I was freaking I was like, "What

the fuck?" Like I said, if that's art,

whoever made it is [ __ ] incredible.

If that's art, you you'd have to have a

really deep understanding of anatomy and

then alter it. Yeah. And then make it

uniform so you do multiple versions of

these things. Go back to that image

again, Jamie. The one you just showed

me. Look at that head, man. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. That looks like a [ __ ] alien.

It totally looks like an alien. The one

other weird wrench that I I we should

mention is there's a proteomics expert

who wants to remain anonymous because I

think he doesn't want to be associated

with the stigma of this case. He looked

at some proteins from an isolated skull

of the J types. Now, I don't think the J

types, the things that were rolled out

in front of the Mexican Congress are

necessarily real. I think maybe they

were made in homage to these things that

do look more real. and he found uh uh

alpaca proteins on them. And so that

that's an important another important

point that you know is a little fly in

the ointment here. So somebody probably

made fake ones too. But but if there's a

market where you can get seven figures

for a real one, of course someone's

going to make some fake ones. Totally.

100%. Yeah. But at the end of the day,

like what is that? And why do they have

three fingers? And the Lazar craft,

didn't it have like some sort of an

indentation for hands? It did. Yeah. And

didn't have three fingers. Oh, I don't

know. Did it. That would be wild. I

don't know. I think it did. Oh my god. I

think it did. And I think it was really

small just like these things are. We're

breaking ground on the Joe Rogan

experience. What if that's it? That's

crazy. You know, and also here's the

thing. We have this concept of this

coming from another planet, but it might

not be from another planet. Yeah, it

might be from here. Hal Putoff noted

that on your show. He has a paper called

the saluran hypothesis, which is you

have cataclysms like the younger dus

impact, you know, or other things like

that. You have 66 million years ago,

Luis Walter Alvarez, you know, there's

the asteroid impact killed all the

dinosaurs or whatever. What if break off

civilization just like this $21 trillion

is supposed to be funding. There you go.

Right. like the underground those

tunnels and caverns in Turkey where they

have this immense underground

civilization or city rather and it

almost felt like maybe they were hiding

out from a cataclysm or something and

that's what they think it was. Yeah. So

imagine if there's some breakoff

civilization where they lived I mean

we're talking hundreds of thousands of

years ago but they're different than us

and you know sometimes they come visit.

Could be, man. Could be. Which is one of

the reason why they come out of the

ocean a lot and totally they're

transmedium and like in some sense you

would care way more about the nuclear

stuff. You'd be like don't destroy your

plan. Don't destroy our planet. We're

here. You'll kill us too stupid. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It also you're dropping

nukes in the ocean. You know the

Marshall Islands test. Exactly. That's

nuts. Really nuts. Yeah. And I think

Yeah. It's a whole other rabbit hole. I

I don't know if you want to get it. See

if you could find out if the Babzar ones

had handprints for them. There's a hand

scanner he talked about, but it wasn't

about three fingers. No, the hand

scanner was at

um Los Alamos. I typed in Bob Lazar UFO

three fingers AI says his claims

have nothing to do with aliens with What

did he say? Uh the controls for the the

vehicle cuz So like mental, right?

There's something about putting your

hands on something.

I believe there's

something element

115. Didn't it say something about

controls? Like that there what did the

inside of the craft look

like? Inside of craft.

So that's Jeremy Corbel. I could skip

through that real quick. Outlines. It

says, "Okay." God, I want to say that

they had three fingers.

That would be wild. That would be

[ __ ] insane cuz they're tiny. They

have three fingers. That's these things.

He said the seats were very small. Yeah.

Yeah. They're supposed to like 3T tall

or four feet tall. That's these things.

There you go. That's these things. Yeah.

And they're in the cave art. It looks

like they're flying. It's like hard to

say because it's on caves or whatever,

but I want to see that, too. Yeah. Yeah.

There's Yeah, you can do tridactyl cave

art. God, how weird. And how old is this

cave art? I think it's dates to the

Nazca period. So around that time. See,

let's go look up that first. You did

tridactyl cave art.

How weird. It's all so [ __ ] weird,

man. Yeah, it's so weird. It's so weird.

It's because it's almost like reality is

[ __ ] with you. Yeah, it

is. It is. And you have like the Amazon

is There's probably one in my dock,

Jamie, that I sent you. There's a couple

there. Oh, there four. There's one

there. There three. Yeah. Yeah. Whoa.

Whoa. Three fingers and three toes.

That's crazy.

Textile fragments. Yeah. Wow. Circle

1000 AD. Whoa.

Yeah. Three fingers, three toes, big

crazy head, weird eyes.

How [ __ ] strange, man. So nuts.

There's so much we don't know. And

everyone's scared of being ridiculous. I

know. You know, everyone's scared. This

one of the great things about what you

do and what I do is we don't have to

worry about being ridiculous. Totally.

Cuz we just are. Yeah. And we don't have

to be like, we have credentials, right?

Right. Right. Worry about being taken

seriously. Yeah. Because so many people

do worry about it and they don't want to

stick their neck out. But when you see

something like this, the three fingers,

three toaded artwork from a thousand

[ __ ] years ago. Yeah. And it looks

really weird. And then you see these

things, you're like, "Hey, is that

real?" Totally. And discoveries require

boldness. They require like just going

for it. And it's it's Yeah. It's this

like kind of nitpicky credentialism of

like I can't I can't say anything other

than the established wisdom. What is

your

incremental addition then to human

knowledge? Right. And when faced with

undeniable evidence, will you relent?

Will you give in? Or will you just like

will you just like dig your heels in

forever and claim [ __ ] till the till

you drop off the face of the earth? Like

look what's going on with Egypt? You

know, like you know, and when I had Zahi

Hawas on and he's just completely

unwilling to look at that, what is it?

Tommography. The data that shows that

there might be something underneath the

pyramids. Like this is [ __ ] This is

like, is it a shore? How do you know?

You don't even understand the science.

How could you possibly know? No first

principles arguments surrounding it.

It's just no, it can't be or whatever.

And I'm like, oh, so you're it's

politics. It's science is supposed to be

the most immune from politics and it's

the most political thing. Weird. It is

weird. When you find that out, it's so

disappointing. It's so disillusioning.

Totally. And then when you have these

scientists that like dismiss people and

they immediately start using ter Look at

this one. That's so wild. This whatever

that thing is around it has a like one

arm with three and then one arm with

three and one foot with three and one

foot with three. But this one's inside

of it. Wow. What is that supposed to be

representing? Two heads. I don't know.

God, there's a couple other things on

the other page that had two headed cats.

Maybe two heads but no eyes. How weird

is that? Like what is that? Big eye. One

eye here. One eye here. to an eye. Or

maybe that's it inside something that it

controls.

You know what I'm saying? A little

sports model, right? Where it's showing

the fingers, meaning like the fingers

are what operates this thing. What are

you seeing? Yeah. This is so nuts, man.

It's so crazy. All three fingers. Like,

what are the [ __ ] odds of that? Yeah.

Yeah. What are the odds that this is a

thousand years old, these images and

this these textiles, and then you find

this stuff? Totally. Like what? And it's

in the mythology and right, what the

[ __ ] is going on, man? I know. It's so

frustrating, Jesse. I'm with you, man.

And the Amazon is the size of the Indian

subcontinent. We have to like LAR it and

like understand. We're finding cities

every day. Like, we need to do the

research. Yeah, we do. We do. Look at

more of these. More three-finger ones.

God, so weird. So different, too. Yeah.

So weird. And that looks like almost

that weird bird that we looked at the

other day with Luke. Yeah, it does. Beep

thing that was on a petetroglyph. Yeah.

Next, I think Luke who hopefully will be

an amazing guest on your show. He's been

on I know. He was amazing. Yeah, he was

fantastic. He was so good. He um he will

say like he's been everywhere, right?

And like he's always like Peru is the

weirdest place I always go. Really? So,

Wow. Yeah. Well, dude, thank you so much

for coming in. I [ __ ] love your show.

It's so good. It's excellent. American

Alchemy. It's on YouTube. Uh, is it just

Jesse Michaels on YouTube? Like, how do

they find the channel? Jesse Michaels on

YouTube. I have a [ __ ] which is where we

It's called WH. It's an amazing place

where we facilitate discussions about

cool science and frontier stuff. I I

don't know. I don't see. You must absorb

because your stuff is really well

produced. You must it must take an

enormous amount of time to edit all

that. Honestly, I'm burnt out.

Listen, I'm glad you're doing it. I

really appreciate you. I appreciate it.

Everybody, go watch it. Go check out the

channel. It's fantastic. Uh, if they

want to find you on social media, what

is your my social media? Uh, Jesse

Michaels official on Instagram, Alchemy

American. No way. Thank you. Bane of my

existence. Is it? Yeah, I'm sure. Roll

call back in the day.

All right. Well, thank you so much. It

was fun. Let's do it again sometime when

more shit's going to come out.

Hopefully. Let's do it. I'm awesome.

Thank you. All right. Bye, everybody.

[Applause]

[Music]

[Applause]

[Music]

Joe Rogan Experience #2331 - Jesse Michels

TLDR

Timeline

From Venture Capital to UAP Research

Ancient Alien Theories and Linguistic Challenges

The Sean Carroll-Eric Weinstein Debate

The Dangers of Social Media and AI

AI Persuasiveness and Sentience

AI's Self-Preservation and Deception

AI Regulation and Communication

AI's Impact on Capitalism

Quantum Computing and Non-Human Intelligence

Human Genetic Engineering

Life on Mars

Anti-Gravity and the Biefeld-Brown Effect

TR3A and TR3B Aircrafts and Bob Lazar's Claims

The Roswell Crash

The Alien Mummies of Peru

Audio Summary

Transcript

Detailed Summary